Notaire, washing machine and Tax Fonciere: advice appreciated!

[juliette]

Hi I've bought an apartment in France which completed a couple of weeks ago and am in the process of tying up any loose ends. The seller agreed to sell me all the furnishings and white goods in the apartment for an agreed sum of money which I paid to him through the notaire. A washing machine was one of the things agreed (it's on an informal list which the estate agents emailed to me). But there is no washing machine in the apartment and althought the notaire's secretary tells me that they have a list in our dossier, she says that she can't check the list to confirm whether the washing machine is on it.  I've asked her to email it to me, but  she hasn't done so. I haven't received the full dossier yet, but was told I would do so in a few months when we met with the notaire last week. My French is reasonable, so don't think anything is getting lost in translation. Could it be that the notaire's admin staff just don't want to address this issue now the sale is through?  The apartment's previous owner has a different notaire.    In addition, our notaire has asked us for two cheques to made payable to the previous owner towards the Tax Fonciere and syndicate charges for the apartment from May of this year until the end of the year. It seems the owner has paid these in full for 2007 and now wants our share. This is fine in principle, but various friends who have both bought and sold in France have told us that once the Tax Fonciere is paid for the year, sellers don't normally ask for part of this back. Is this right?  I feel slightly uncomfortable paying this cheques direct to the owner rather than the relevant organisations. Also, am feeling annoyed about disappearing washing machine and don't feel inclined to write cheques to the seller when we have paid for something that isn't there! Sorry if this all sounds completely ridiculous.  The last thing I want to do is create any bad feeling.  But I do feel like telling the notaire's secretary that we will pay the owner for the syndicate fees and Tax Fonciere (if liable) once we have the washing machine. Any advice from those experienced in buying French property greatly appreciated.

Juliette

[Clair]

Regardless of whether you agree to pay your supposed share of the bills, you should ask for a copy of the original bills before writing any cheque.

[Panda]

Hi Juliette

If you have only completed recently the tax fonciere bill will not have been issued yet for 2007 and whilst it may well be that you have agreed to pay your share of this this should only happen when the bill is issued in November of this year.  We have completed a few sales here and each time it has been agreed and written in the acte de vente that we will pay our share, the old owner sends us a copy of the bill showing that they've paid and we pay the months of our occupation.  On a previous thread it was said that it is not always they case and some have not agreed and have never paid any part of the fonciere bill for the year they became owners so it's not an automatic thing, so there are two points, one have you agreed to pay this and two how can they have paid in full for this year when the bill comes at the end of the year.

That's my take on it anyway, as far as the washing machines concerned if it was on the list then it should be there, the list should be in the sales docs ours was. I think you should withould the other monies, why not? 

Panda

[juliette]

Hi Panda and Clair

Thanks for your valuable advice.

I wasn't expecting to be presented with any additional charges when I met with the notaire last week so the Tax Fonciere and Syndicate (apartment charges) payment request came as a surprise. The notaire had been authorised to sign the Acte de Vente in our absence and I haven't yet seen a copy of it.  So basically it wasn't something that had been previously agreed to.  The notaire did give us a copy of the previous owner's Tax Fonciere bill, on the front of which is written 'Tax Foncieres 2006' (my mistake!) and the date of the actual bill seems to be 31/8/2006.  I was confused by the fact that at the bottom of the bill there is a list entitled 'Echeancier (payment schedule?) 2007' which lists the monthly charges for 2007.  Our sale was completed mid- May so I can't see how we would liable for a 2006 bill.  In addition we don't have any copy of the syndicate charges for 2007 or 2006- the notaire just told us the amount he wanted us to pay.

So I guess we should ask for some clear documentation before paying either.  As regards the disappearing washing machine, do you think that I should push the notaire to sort this out also?  As the notaire's secretary is clearly very reluctant to find the list, I wondered whether this would come into their remit.  Although if not, who would do it?  Us, I guess. 

Juliette 

 

[Panda]

Hi

In our case the notaire typed a full list of items to be included and it was part of the final acte so yes I think you should be able to both get a copy and get their help in finding out why it was missing.

I would not pay a thing until I'd seen the paperwork, it all sounds a little odd.

Panda

[juliette]

Thanks Panda

I will write to the notaire asking for full clarification and post the outcome on the site (and perhaps even a picture of the rogue washing machine!)

Juliette

[Quillan]

I have just got my Taxes Froncieres bill out and had a look. Basically my TF was calculated back on the 31-08-2006 for the forthcoming year. At the bottom there are the payments I will make  for 2007 which are on and around the 15th of each month. I therefore think that the seller has this done (like me) on a direct debit from his account but I don't know how you stop one in France. Don't forget for nearly everything the tax year in France starts on the 1st Jan.

Basically the last payment he should have made (using your previous post as a guide) way May 2007 after which you should have been asked either to pay the outstanding balance till the end of 2007 or to supply a RIB so that the rest of the years payments can be taken from your French bank account. When I bought my house the guy seemed to have paid his in one go so as I moved in at the end of January I had to pay him (via the notaire although the cheque was made payable to the old owner) for the rest of the year. This is the normal practice and as already said it's normally written in to the contract at the pre sales stage which you should have a copy of.

As to the syndicate stuff I have no idea but if it's the equivalent to ground rent/service charge then again I would expect you to pay from the end of May onwards. If the guy had already paid the year up front then I would be expecting to pay him for the rest of the year but as I said I don't know what they do about this in France.

[P]

When we completed in late Jan 07 (the vendors were present) the notaire spoke about sharing the costs of the TF and added that for 2007 they would not be payable until later in the year when the bill would be issued.

I just thought that it seemed a little petty splitting the bill with the vendor paying less than a thirteenth, added to the fact that the total bill is only what we pay in the UK in a month and a bit. We have therefore decided that when the vendors receive the bill they would send it on to us and we would pay it.

He was most clear that the 2007 bill would not be received until later in 2007. Is it a case that whilst the bills received in 2006 show payments in 2007 this is because they are, effectively paid in arrears?

Paul

[Quillan]

[quote user="P"]

When we completed in late Jan 07 (the vendors were present) the notaire spoke about sharing the costs of the TF and added that for 2007 they would not be payable until later in the year when the bill would be issued.

I just thought that it seemed a little petty splitting the bill with the vendor paying less than a thirteenth, added to the fact that the total bill is only what we pay in the UK in a month and a bit. We have therefore decided that when the vendors receive the bill they would send it on to us and we would pay it.

He was most clear that the 2007 bill would not be received until later in 2007. Is it a case that whilst the bills received in 2006 show payments in 2007 this is because they are, effectively paid in arrears?

Paul

[/quote]

I thought having a 3 bed detatched house in Docklands (London) cost me a bomb but here in France it's even more expensive. Just our TF is 1,620 Euros and our TH is about the same as well so if I were to be charitable I would call it a total of 3,200 Euros per year which is about £2,200.

I cannot remember which way round it is but one is paid in advance and the other in arrears. I guess it depends on when you buy the house whether it's work the seller asking for the balance.

[P-D de Rouffignac]

I work in the property business in France so have a fair amount of experience of completing transactions, including last month the sale of my own partment and the purchase of another. It is quite common for some taxes and charges to be split beween the previous owner and the new puchaser, and this is what I have done in the case of the sale of my old apartment and the purchase of the new one. In the case of my old apartment the agents (who are also the syndic management company) had itemised my payments to the syndic (till end of September 2007) and the new owners reimbursed me directly for part of this, as they let me stay a bit longer in the apartment after the sale before my new one was ready for completion.

In the case of the new purchase, I paid some money direct to the notaire for the TF and also a cheque direct to the previous owner to take over his share of a reserve fund held by the syndic, to which every owner has contributed their share.

The point is that I had not precisely figured these various sums into my calculations but it is clear they were correct, and are part of the normal process of buying and selling an apartment within a co-ownership property. There is no general conspiracy to defraud either buyers or sellers! In this case, the agency - who have been established over 50 years in the region - happened to be the building managers in both cases, while the notaires' office is now run by the grandchildren of the original founders and is a large firm with about 15 staff.

In the present case, please have confidence in the system. I am sure you can just ask for clarification and in the case of the 'missing' washing machine either ask the owner, the agent or the notaire to make an adjustment if it was included in the list of items included in the sale. This could be done by witholding any monies due for other adjustments of the type described above. In my own purchase, the apartment was full of junk (including an old washing machine!) not factored into the sale price, and it took me two days to clear it out....

Peter-Danton de ROUFFIGNAC