soldering two copper pipes together - help needed urgently!

[Wendy]

We are trying to fix the narrow copper pipe which feeds water into the toilet cistern - we need to solder/seal one narrow copper pipe to the other to stop water leakage and the melted solder keeps falling away from the piping. It wont stick...why!!

We have cleaned and filed the piping...solder is 2.5mm thickness and bought it from Brico, the thickest one we could get - it is for sanitaire use.

Thanks in advance[:'(]

[JMB]

I'm no expert, but it sounds like you need more flux.

[Bugsy]

You need flux Jura.

Clean both ends of the pipes to be joined, with wire wool, until bright. Heat each end slightly, then apply flux. heat further and apply solder to the end lightly. It will melt and coat the surface. Wipe of the excess with a strong rag (its hot)

When you have done this, put the pipes together, heat up and apply solder,  it will quickly run and you have a perfect joint.

Don't overheat or try to put more solder into the joint, you'll just end up with a mess.

Gary

 

Watch this

[Wendy]

Oh Thanks guys!

the solder is dripping off right now...

shall try the advice.

Tar!!

[thunderhorse]

This sounds like a joint which is simply butt-ended. Is that OK in order to join two pipes?

[tj]

Hi

clean the 2 pipes with wire wool, apply flux inside the connector and the 2 pipes put the joint together, heat evenly across the joint and touch the solder to it, when its hot enough it will run into the joint.

it sounded to me like you were trying to resolder an exisiting joint ? if you are you, at best you might get the old solder to soften and seal the joint, but doubtful, and if there is any water in the pipes, NO CHANCE!

[tj]

[quote user="thunderhorse"]This sounds like a joint which is simply butt-ended. Is that OK in order to join two pipes?
[/quote]

 

no!

[AnOther]

If you are indeed trying to butt joint a pipe or repair a crack or split then although it can be done it is extremely poor practice and definately a job for a soldering expert which, with all due respect, you do not appear to be.

Allow me to also correct your apparent misconception that solder 'sticks', it doesn't, at least not in the sense you seem to be expecting it to, your basic problem may be that you are simply appling too much heat.

If you fully melt solder it will turn liquid and obey Newtons Law of Gravity [:)]

[La Guerriere]

Ah, now we did have a few joints in our house which were a sort of pathetic butt joint, where one side had been slightly belled and t'other just shoved in and liberally soldered. These joints had zero mechnical strength and fell apart if any sort of external force was applied.

It's daft really, because French pipe sizing is a delight:  the wall thickness is 1mm, a bit of 12mm fits snugly inside a 14mm and 10mm fits nicely in a 12mm etc etc. So joining stuff is actually dead easy: just make up a sleevy bit one size up and give it good overlaps. Clean enthusiastically with the wire wool until it shines (doing the inside can be a little tricky but go for it). Smear with flux and fit everything together, heat it up and then apply the solder and Bob's your Oncle. Works for me anyway ..... [:)][:)]

[Chancer]

Jura

Just follow the link that Gary posted and you will be fine, its American so you might need to know that "sodder" = "solder" [:D]

A video ike that is worth a thousand words.

Also with French pipe sizes you dont need to buy straight coupling joints, each pipe will slide into the next bigger size, to join two pipes of the same size "a la rigeur" you can use an offcut of the next size up.

Good luck girl!

[thunderhorse]

[quote user="tj"]

[quote user="thunderhorse"]This sounds like a joint which is simply butt-ended. Is that OK in order to join two pipes?

[/quote]

 

no!

[/quote]

Glad to hear it.

[Wendy]

In reply to all the very helpful suggestions - it appears we were overheating the solder and had  also started out the job without using any flux. But all is fine now and thanks to you all for coming to the rescue[:)]

[gosub]

And if you want to improve your French at the same time, Watch This

[BIG MAC]

"If you fully melt solder it will turn liquid and obey Newtons Law of Gravity "

The things I learn on here......

Stopped laughing now......

Clean pipes externally wire wool

Clean pipes internally brass wire brush (Not strictly neccessary if using decent solder but good insurance/practice for newbies)

Use a 1/2 cheapo paint brush to brush a small amount of clean flux on the female side of the joint wiping any excess on the male.

Make the joint wiggling slightly if possible.

Heat the outside of the female side of the joint using a focussed flame (A decent torch and MAPP gas is my preferred option but other methods are fine)

When you see a marked discolouration to the copper ie it goes 'rosy' not red hot but takes a reddish tinge you will likely see flux boiling from the joint, maintain the heat and touch the solder to the boiling flux at the edge of the joint, light pushing on the solder wire will see the wire disappear into the joint filling the void by capillary action....gravity not relevant it will run into the joint regardless if the joint is well prepared.

As soon as you can see a ring of solder right around the joint remove the heat and do not introduce more wire. Wipe your flux brush round the joint (Shiny isn't it) then wipe with a damp cloth .........

Easy peasy........bit of practice and you will be tickety boo..........wish I had a penny for every joint I had soldered.

Word of warning you wont be able to solder pipes with any water in them, theres those of us who can by  trickery but for the amateur best not attempted please ensure water is removed completely from pipe work and that things are valved off  properly. Reason I wont go into more detail is the amount of times houses get flooded by joints which "Looked ok" letting go........invariably joints made up with poor flux or water present.

[AnOther]

Glad to have given you a belly laugh though not sure my observation of a simple fact of physics was that funny [;-)]

Thanks also for the object lesson in soldering but if you read the OP it seems pretty clear that the question being asked is not how to solder a standard male/female coupling.

For the record and to clear up the doubt perhaps Jura would be kind enough to explain exactly what she is trying to to, assuming she's not under 2m of water by now that is [:'(]

[BIG MAC]

Solder will flow uphill quite happily under Capillary action rather than gravity...in fact contrary to gravity. Solder scoffs at gravity a bit like rising damp!

A butt joint (which could never be soldered adequately without a flange) should be simply sleeved with the next size up pipe...hence the reference to male and female...to do otherwise would be pointless and even were a semblance of a joint produced .......an early bath would be guaranteed unless of course one was wanting to go for the long not lamented lead wiped joint which we used to use to join lead mains and not really the province of the amateur.

[Fridgeman]

Hi All

Not wanting to sound too clever I was under the impression that water copper pipe work was brazed rather than soldered due to the high water pressure in France also making a swaged joint was is lot neater than a coupling and yes I have brazed thousands of joints.

 

 

[BIG MAC]

Just goes to show impressions can be wrong........The pipes I have encountered in France have been predominately soldered. Swaged joins are frowned upon in many places due to the reduction in wall thickness and work hardening on the shoulder of the swage probs not such a problem on soft refrigeration pipe bit more of a problem on 1/2 hard plumbing tube. A coupling would only be less neat if one belongs to the 'Strawberry school' of joint making ie. more solder hanging off the joint than in it.

Here's a useful little guide for the uninitiated.

 http://www.aws.org/w/s/wj/2002/08/feature2/

[Ron Avery]

Swaged joints maybe frowned upon in the UK but as Fridgeman says, they are certainly the norm in France, or at least for the French plumbers round here.

French copper tubing has thicker walls than UK tube and all they do is apply a bit of heat,  bell out the end with an expanding  tool and braze the same size pipe into the other, no covers or larger diameter pipe needed  In many systems the only joints to be seen are T pieces, no others are necessary.

[BIG MAC]

Hi Ron the French guys do it  largely because it is easy, that does not neccessarily make it best. Regardless of wall thickness an additional  stress is being introduced by the process. I am also conscious that when advising a DIYer its probs best to keep it simple, no need for swaging tool etc. in the same vein brazing is unlikely to be neccessary on a domestic system. Horses for courses really.

[Tibblington]

With soldering cleanliness is godliness.  Yes do wire wool the end thoroughly but you will need a sleeve to bring the two ends together.  Usually the next size up of tube works well in France because the wall thickness is 1mm and the sizes are in 2mm steps..  Clean the inside of the sleeve thoroughly, apply flux to both the ends of the tube to be joined and the sleeve.  Slip the sleeve over the the joint and heat but be sure that the sleeve is as well heated as the tube then apply a little solder at both ends of the sleeve and you should see it run.  Maintain the heat for a few seconds then wipe off excess solder with a thick clotch.  Voila!!

[jondeau]

Just to throw a spanner in the works..........for a great many years just about all of the plumbing/gas fitting professionals in the UK have used self cleaning flux.

No need for wire wool or anything else, just flux the pipe and fitting (tho' most say you can get away without bothering to flux the fitting) and away you go.Saves all that messing about and no more sore fingers from the steel wool.

I have never seen it in France.........but maybe I've never really looked, I always bring a supply with me.........Brand names are La-co and errr.......I forget the other(s) I always use La-co........It's American I believe, but you can't have everything.

 

[BIG MAC]

Powerflow is the most common

La-co stinks when pickling........

still better to clean joints than rely upon the muck running out.

[jondeau]

It would have to be said old chap, that on occasions you do write a load of old rubbish.

Pickling is an engineering process whereby metal is cleaned by immersion in acid........ not flux.

La-co is the brand leader in the UK, sadly it is not available in France, but you can get it in Belgium.

 

Quote ' still better to clean joints than to rely upon the muck running out '

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

[BIG MAC]

Presumably the crying will be the tears induced by the flood of superflous flux smouldering round your ankles, shoddy work starts with a can't be bothered to clean attitude and goes downhill from there. Some will develop the degree of knowledge required to know whether it's relatively safe to risk relying upon flux and solder alone and not cleaning however as this is DIY advice being given I think it appropriate to recommend best practice, why do anything the rubbish way just because you can?

 http://www.tooled-up.com/artwork/ProdPDF/TBLACxx.pdf

Attached link will direct you to a COSHH Data sheet for your preferred brand,of ammonium chloride based flux (acidic, ph is about <2  ) you will note the respiratory protection recommendations and the warning that fumes may irritate. "Self cleansing" fluxes once heated are generally acidic, they need to be to achieve the "Self cleansing" bit.

Pickling is a term used for many things......   the coating of oxidised tube with ammonium chloride flux then removing it without any heat applied will result in bright metal being revealed....Hang on that fits your definition of pickling doesn't it?

I would suggest that in this case the crying may be best left to those who know their onions........pickled or otherwise and that clearly isn't your good self.

Amen