Tiling

[WJT]

I am currently looking for tiles for two upstairs bathrooms. The plaquist that will be fitting out the walls and doors that are coming down to rearrange some of the rooms has said he wants to do the tiling for the bathrooms as well. I am looking at a very good deal on some natural stone that I am thinking of buying. 

The tiles will be put on floorboards which concerns me because of the movement. In fact, in the UK we have had some tiles in an upstairs bathroom that have been a problem, grout cracking etc.. because I presume the plywood that was put on top of the floorboards before tiling wasn't thick enough. With natural stone, I would imagine this could pose an even bigger problem.

Also, I was wondering how people overcome the problem with levels. We are hoping to be able to sand and use our current floorboards upstairs. When tiling the bathrooms, how do people when using the floorboards overcome putting plywood or chipboard down and then adding the depth of the tiles, overcome this? It just doesn't seem right to have to step up to a bathroom.[8-)]

I am just a little worried that this could be beyond the knowledge of the plaquist even though he says he would have no problem with working with natural stone. Would love to hear what others have done in  this situation or any feedback or advice at all would be most appreciated. [:)]

[Jay]

Done a similar thing with the upstairs bathroom in our Gite. The floor boards are a couple of hundred years old and not very level. I used a 20mm deep mix of cement, sand and polystyrene balls which you can buy at most Brico stores. Instructions for mix are on the sack they come in. Laid the tiles on top of that and under the door I put a polished wood beading. The result looks good even though there is a small step up into the bathroom. The tiles have not moved and no cracking of joints in the two years they have been down.

[WJT]

Jay, thank you, that is very interesting. The cement, sand and polystyrene balls, did it come pre mixed? You didn't need to put any sort of sub floor down?  I forgot to mention that the tiles I am considering come in a few sizes but the smallest is 40 x 40cm so quite large. I would worry that if the floor was very flexible the tiles would crack.

Sorry for all of the questions.

[BIG MAC]

Remove the floor boards if you are worried and replace them with 20mm ply (Problem if floorboards are also the downstairs ceiling admittedly)

If you were to put a screed then stone (Which tends to come in varying thicknesses therefore you need to work to the thickest to get a level) then you will have a significant step.

If floor boards are oak then I personally would drill and screw them  down using good quality fixings (Stainless Ideally) then coat the floor with bituthene or similar proofing compound then tile straight to boards using flexible adhesive and grout designed for the purpose not normal tile cement). If softwood boards then I would screw them down then screw ply to them. 99 times out of 100 when floors like this fail its because the preparation wasn't done or wrong materials used.

When laying stone 'Batch' your materials ie swap stuff from pack to pack then start with the thickest bits, this will do two things 1) It should mix colours to give a more pleasing appearance 2) Thicker working to thinner means add some adhesive.....the other way about can be a nightmare and invariably ends up with thick sections with hardly any bedding if working to level.

 Hope this helps

[Jay]

No they do not come ready mixed. The object of using the polystyrene in the mix is to keep the whole thing as light as possible. Ours seems very stable although we just used standard floor tiles. There was no other preparation except for laying down plastic sheeting prior to laying the cement mix. Level it just like you would any other concrete floor. We did make sure all the floorboards were secure.

I'll look tomorrow for the sack the polystyrene came in if you like and let you know what it is called and what mix we used. As I remember it you just replace some of the sand with the polystyrene, no doubt there will be a builder on here who will correct me if I am wrong!

[Anton Redman]

The balls are called ‘Polybeton’  . In addition to the mesh there are also corrugated trays on which you concrete which do a similar job. Threads as below :

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/904396/ShowPost.aspx

 

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/553613/ShowPost.aspx

 

 

[WJT]

I didn't realize something needed to be put down on the floorboards. Perhaps this is what went wrong in the UK, not sure if this was done because as I mentioned they did put a thick layer of plywood on top of the boards but it is cracking.

Big Mac, the tiles I am thinking about are all the same thickness, they are 1.2cm thick. But just thought because they are a natural material would need special skills and materials. I think that taking up the floorboards would be a big job but don't know I will ask the plaquist. By the way, the floor is not the ceiling downstairs so that wouldn't be an issue.

Jay, thank you for the information on the polystyrene, I assume that the purpose of this is because it would make the floor too heavy using sand only. As Big Mac mentioned perhaps there is a specialist product for this, at least I hope so because I don't know if I could trust who ever I had to do it to get the mixture right. The weight of the floor is a whole other issue, because I am very worried about the fact that I have bought a cast iron roll top that weighs about 150kg without water! It is something I didn't think about and now have visions of it coming through the ceiling below.[:'(]

Thank you both again.

Edit: Anton, I have just seen your post, will have a look at the other threads. Thank you[:)]

 

[BIG MAC]

Sounds like confusion over a levelling screed which may not even be required here. The methods put forward by me will be cost effective and efficient  without the a large build up in the floor make up (And the corresponding weight increase)

If a free standing Iron bath is going in and you are concerned about weight then its worth consdering where you site it ie feet bearing as near to directly above joists and bearing in mind ideally you would like a waste that is not to obtrusive (Hint) If waste is passing through the floor directly under the bath create a small upstand around it and tile it in this way when the inevitable tsunami arrives it isn't going to go straight through!

If our place is anything to go by (the floor above was a granary in a previous life) then  I should imagine joists will be appropriately sized.

So to recap 1) screw every board down with non ferrous fixings 2) prepare floor to receive adhesive (Flexible two pack such as that by Evo is fine ) I would use bituthene as there is residual waterproofing there and good adhesion some use PVA (Not so good IMHO) 3) ensuring all service penetrations are carcassed in ..get tiling 4) If boards are really ga-ga I would locally replace those that need it rather than getting into levelling screed in an upstairs room.

 

[Babbles]

We had 2 Bathroom floors done in Jays method and used quite large stone tiles with no problems, when our Macon was putting the floor down he called it chicken feed as thats just what it looked like. It worked particularly well in the showeroom by raising the floor as you then had a level surface with the shower tray which was a really neat job as you then stepped down a tiny bit into it, a bit like a wet room with out all the hastle[:)], good point about if your putting a bath in and where the pressure points are, if I remember correctly he did reinforce bits of it, but he didn't want to lay a screed because of the weight of it, hope this is of some help

[WJT]

Thank you very much. In regards to the bath, it is freestanding but will be sited along side a wall. There are tap holes in the middle so they will be fitted in the center against the wall. So hopefully it won't be possible to see them or the waste pipes. If I understand Big Mac correctly, if they are somewhat visible to perhaps box them in? Otherwise, I am not sure I understand.[:$]

Babbles I like the idea that the shower tray is the same level as the floor but how did you get around the bathroom being a different level? Do you have to step up? I just can't visualize this with the two bathrooms.

I will definitely be looking at this thread when I discuss it with the plaquist. The tiler that did our downstairs tiling didn't use bitumen or anything on the concrete base before tiling which sounds like it would have been a good thing to do in this situation as well.

[BIG MAC]

As I understand it build up is what you are trying to avoid so the vermiculite / polistyrene laytex isn't needed it would create more of a problem at the door threshold rather than less.

I am assuming that supply pipework will be in the wall rather than coming up through the floor? The waste often times penetrates the floor creating an area where spillage can find its way through, Theres lots of ways to try to prevent this a) neat collar filled pre-tiling with a lip that extends about an inch above screwed/glanded to floor is one way b) create a short piece of boxing and tile it in is another.

 

[WJT]

Thank you Big Mac. I assume that the waste will be coming up the wall but will discuss this with the plumber that is coming here next week for something else. It is something I haven't even thought about. [8-)]

[Richard & Tracy]

You know that movement is the main problem so thats a good thing. There are a couple of ways you could satisfactorily tile these rooms. In either case, ensure adequate ventilation beneath the floor.

1. Cut out the floorboards, insert noggins between the joists to stiffen them up and re-board using 25mm thick WBP or marine ply, having sealed the underside and edges with primer to prevent moisture ingress. The ply should be screw fixed to the joists and noggins at 300mm centres.

2. Screw fix the existing floorboards at 300mm centres, replacing any unsound ones and punching in any nails as you go. Overboard with cement based tile backer board (stagger the joints), ideally 10mm thick but you can get it in 6mm thick, again screw fixing at 300mm centres in each direction.

Fix the tiles with flexible cement based adhesive preferably 2 part, although single part flexible may be sufficient.

Grout with flexible grout. Ensure a movement joint of 5mm around the perimeter. Method 1 would be my choice and will give a minimal step up from the adjacent room which, when covered with a suitable transition strip, will be virtually unnoticable.

[BIG MAC]

Difficult to comment without knowing what type of build we are talking about I personally wouldn't bother  inserting noggins between chamber joists if we are talking about 200 year old 250 x 150mm oak, I may in the UK when dealing with 6" x 2" softwood which is so green its got leaves on it!

Ventilation to the interfloor why would you put it there if it wasn't there before? if it's not a suspended ground floor we are talking about then ambient moisture shouldn't be an issue.

I really should change my sign off to....'Bloke who has fitted (and removed) umpteen cast Iron baths' as I was for many years a plumbist...but I don't think I shall bother.

[WJT]

Big Mac if you want to move one more cast iron bath, please just let me know. [:D]

Seriously though this is something I am worried about (I now know why people buy the plastic ones), I bought it off of ebay uk with some other items and will have them delivered. The prices I paid more than made up for the delivery price.

Now I am worried sick about getting it up the stairs once it is delivered and until this thread hadn't thought about the weight for the floor.[:(]

As far as the floorboards, the house is an old house but unfortunately the floorboards aren't that old, in fact I have assumed they are oak but just went to have a look in the one room where they form the ceiling and I can't tell if they are oak or pine. In any case, the average width appears to be about 12cm.

I have just found this on ebay (I think I am becoming a junkie).  Perhaps this could be a good product to use on top of the floorboards once secured or even in place of the floorboards if they could be removed?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Aquapanel-10mm-Tilebacker-Substrate-Construction-Board_W0QQitemZ250195799185QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Flooring?hash=item250195799185&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1296%7C66%3A4%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

[Richard & Tracy]

The Aquapanel has a polystyrene core and is great for going onto a concrete floor prior to tiling to provide insulation and a good surface to tile onto. However, I dont think they are rigid enough for a timber floor so I would recommend these instead: http://www.pureadhesion.co.uk/product/172/10-x-hardibacker-250-(6mm-floors)

 

 

[BIG MAC]

Bath carrying upstairs is a pig of a job...particularly if you are in a decorated house  we used to do it with the feet removed and bath inverted with one guy under the bath a la tortoise and one behind 'Steering'

Don't worry about the weight of the bath...worry about its weight full of water! If joist deflection is possible (Only likely to be significant in soft wood or undersized joists) you can fasten steel plates down the side of  the affected joists TBH I wouldn't have thought in an older French place timbers would be fairly substantial...no hard and fast rules though.

Aquapanel not needed its not as if the room below is cold, is it?

20 (or 25mm at a push) ply is fine (I have actually used  CDX shuttering ply in the past) If you are interested CDX is so called because of the quality of its faces C is a higher grade than D and should be used as the facing side in shuttering.

I dont think this will be as big a nightmare as you think. Don't go heaving a heavy bath about on newly tiled floor give it a week I would suggest. Are we all done now?..lol

[Babbles]

WJT  here are a couple of photo's of the ensuite to one of the bedrooms, we made one long large bathroom into two, we raised the floor about 6 cm in both so you had to step up into it. We'd bought the showertray first and made the floor level with it, the pics expain it better than I can[:)] Unfortunatly the finished article doesn't show the shower, the pebble tiles worked well as that outside wall was as like a dogs hind leg and didn't take to large stone tiles[;-)]

[IMG]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Miss_Babs_photos/Ensuitestepemail.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Miss_Babs_photos/ensuiteshowertrayemail.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Miss_Babs_photos/showertraywithtileshalfdone.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x190/Miss_Babs_photos/ensuiteshoweremail.jpg[/IMG]

[WJT]

Thank you so much for all of the advice.

Babbles, that is a beautiful bathroom!  Ingenious idea about the stone tiles on the bad wall, very pretty. After seeing the step up to your bathroom, I am no longer worried.[:)]

Big Mac, I hadn't thought about a man standing in the bath while taking it upstairs, that is a great idea. However, unfortunately, there is a turn and at some stage the bath will need to be vertical, so I can't even imagine how that will go.[:(]

Thank you again.

[WJT]

Thank you so much for all of the advice.

Babbles, that is a beautiful bathroom!  Ingenious idea about the stone tiles on the bad wall, very pretty. After seeing the step up to your bathroom, I am no longer worried.[:)]

Big Mac, I hadn't thought about a man standing in the bath while taking it upstairs, that is a great idea. However, unfortunately, there is a turn and at some stage the bath will need to be vertical, so I can't even imagine how that will go.[:(]

Thank you again.

[BIG MAC]

The time to find out being the man iside the bath being at the steep end is a good idea is not when it's sliding off the sloped end lol!

The bath you mentioned is it double ended? if so two slopy ends = Indian Bread = PITA.... upside down is still the way to go but it's a horrible job.....

As an aside we used to play a game of  how many hits does it take to turn a cast bath into two ends, two sides and two half bottoms! I have heard of it done in 10 hits but have never managed the feat I think 13 is my record! Lot easier to get out in jigsaw form.

 

[WJT]

Oh dear not very encouraging Big Mac. [:-))] And yes, it is double ended. I'm trying not to think too much about it before it arrives or I may want to have it in jigsaw form as you have done.[:)]

[Busy Bee]

Regarding your question, I have tiled many bathroom floors on top of the existing boards. It is of the utmost importance that the old boards are fixed very firmly indeed, to stop any undue movement, predrill and countersink all screws, do not nail. Remove all existing varnish/wax and sand thoroughly with rough grit sandpaper to provide a key for the primer.

I would thoroughly recommend the use of the kits that are available e.g from weber brutin, this will prime and seal your floor completely so as to not allow any moisture to pass through to the boards below and cause swelling/movement. The kit includes a primer coat, ruberised finish coat and normally 5meters of band to be used in all corners and pipework. This is normally no where near enough but extra rolls are available to buy independantly. It is expensive but will give you complete peace of mind.

Use only flexible adhesive that can be used for internal AND external tiling. DO NOT use cheap products go for a well known brand e.g Weber Brutin or Parex-Lanko. If in doubt ask your local depot. They will give you a product that will be specifically designed for your needs.

Do NOT leave the tile spacers inbetween the tiles, use the spacers on their end then remove after 24hours. This will allow the maximum amount of grout around the edges of the tiles. The grout must be of the flexible type also.

If you are at all unsure about excessive "give "in the floorboards then use a primer then  mesh and self levelling screed (usually 2-3 mm) after sanding then use the sealing kits.

Not knowing how thick your natural stone tiles are I can only suggest the use of a Barre Suisse, this is a wooden threshold strip of timber usually hardwood that will coverthe meeting point  between the existing floor and new floor.

Good luck, and dont skimp on the quality of the materials.

[WJT]

Thank you so much Busy Bee, just wish you lived near here.[:)] I still haven't even seen the plaquist to discuss the tiling, however, I have the impression he is not one that wants to be asked too many questions about his products and procedures. This is one worry I have even though he is a carreleur he appears to be a plaquist first and I feel that in this instance it will take someone with a lot of experience and knowledge of natural stone.

Perhaps I am being too cautious because of the problems we have had with our upstairs bathroom tiles in the UK. I will try to ask him when I see him  how he would do it and what products he will use and see if I can get an idea from his answers if it matches up. Thank you again.

[BIG MAC]

What was the make up of your uk floor? 18mm chipboard on 6 x2s?