Cost of renovations - URGENT

[John Sergant]

Hello

 

We are in France looking for a house and may have found it with just a few days before we must return to England.  We have found a big old village house and would like to put in an offer, but the house needs a lot of work.  We are getting a price for a new roof and for cleaning out what looks like 10 years of pigeon droppings but need to find out some other prices or at least have a ball park figure for these so that we can allow for this and the other costs.  The house stands on a village road that has mains drainage but there are no man holes near the house, there are other houses conneted in the road, we will need to get connected to this, the road is about 10 metres wide, I am not sure where the drain runs.  I would like a new man hole just inside the property so that I could run my new drains to this, can any one suggest a price for connection? 

The next item is the electrics.  I am a qualified electrician so would be happy to read the French regs and re wire the house, I believe I can do this and then get this inspected, is this correct?.  The house has not been occupied for many years and although the power cables run to the house, it has been disabled, I am not sure how, maybe only fuses removed, the box was in a dark cupboard and my torch went flat!!  Would EDF or who ever allow the connection the be re made  before the house is re wired? The old wires appear to be about 50 years old and latter wires about 15 years old.  Would they allow connection to just a distribution box?.  The last question, the power enters one end of the property (it is a long house), it would make sense to enter in the middle, would EDF charge for a new connection or would I be better off just extending the present supply ?

 

Thanks for you help!!

 

Stephen

[just john]

We were in a similar situation with the electrics, fortunately the local builders merchant proved to be the most helpful, arranging for EDF to connect a builders supply (fusebox and power socket adjacent to the main supply, he was also the knowledgeable and best price in dealing with the fosse. (or your case the sewage connection) so that's where I'd suggest starting.[8-|]

 

[Chancer]

EDF reconnected my building without any conditions other than wishing me good luck and that I would need it, the wiring was/is about 80 years old and the property had been abandoned for nearly two decades.

You can do your own wiring, unless you need a new supply (I did as I am creating separate flats) you will be under no obligation to undergo a consuel inspection however you can ask for one and in my opinion it is €110 well spent for the knowedge that you will gain and the confirmation that you have correctly interpreted the regs.

Offer for the house what it is worth to you, this is not the UK where people try to reduce the price by everything that the surveyors report (HIPS?) throws up, you do not need to justify your offer, it is worth what it is worth to you.

good luck.

[baypond]

Whatever you first assessment of cost is for renovation, I would double it. That way you might be pleasantly surprised at the final figure, rather than distraught.

[Devon]

For God's sake get a grip. It's cheaper to buy a house in good nick than to renovate. [:P]

[PaulT]

[quote user="Devon"]

For God's sake get a grip. It's cheaper to buy a house in good nick than to renovate. [:P]

[/quote]

Ah, but that kills the art of conversation. Buy a total wreck and you will have years of telling people what it was like and what you did to it. Buy somewhere with everything done and what have you got to talk about? [:D]

I agree with you Devon that is probably true. We looked at places requiring work and when you added up the cost of renovation it was not financially sensible. HOWEVER, if you plan to live there for a long time and it will be ideal for you then economics should not play a part.

Paul

[Nick Trollope]

Truth be told, you are not going to get any ballpark figures (reasonably accurate ones, anyway) within "a few days".

I would allow between 700 and 1100€ per square metre of living space (+ TVA probably at 19.6%) for a decent quality renovation, dependant on how much you do yourself.

As someone else has pointed out, it is far far cheaper to buy a renovated property or to knock it down and start again.

As regard electrics, you cannot assume anything. If you do need a CONSUEL, (as would seem likely) then the whole installation must be to latest regs, which are complex (and in French and nothing like the UK regs). A temporary supply lasts a maximum of 12 months (nowadays).

You will need alot of money to do any renovation nowadays. Things really are very very expensive here.

 

[just john]

I agree with all the above, but continue to renovate houses and rebuild cars because one size does not fit all (especially not me[:)]) and Turquoise with drab brown are not my colours. Truth be told if location, realised potential (and performance[:D]) are important to you then courage mon brave![8-|]

[La Guerriere]

CHEOPS LAW

"Nothing gets built on time or within budget"

The other warning is that everything takes a l-o-n-g time in France. The process of getting somebody to come out and give an estimate takes t-i-m-e and then once you have made a decision it takesd a-g-e-s for them to pitch up and actually do anything. Mind you it may be better at the moment with the recession biting, but you don't get the same quick reactions you may expect in UK.

 

[Anton Redman]

Even if you are going to have all the heavy consumers of power such as water heating, ovens etc at the far end of the house it is unlikely to financially viable to move the entry point. The Tableaux D Electricite for a new build of over 100 square metres has three rows for disjointers and space for 39 standard modules. If you have to have a CONSUEL inspection then you will need to install RJ45 for TV, 'phone etc distribution in each of the main rooms including the kitchen.

You can bring a renovation in to a budget but only if you are prepared to cost the thing down to the last screw, plumbing joint etc and allopw a contingency for breakages replacement tools etc. and do all the work yourself. The Property Ladder £ 750 for the bathroom etc. style budgets are always too low

Best of luck

[andyh4]

Having been involved in restoration for the last 5 years (still on-going), I broadly agree with all of the comments made so far.  It will cost you lots of time and money.  It may well be time and money well spent for you, but it would also be cheaper to build new if cost is your only criterion.

 

Your post does ring one warning bell with me, in that, if the other properties are connected to mains drainage and you are not, it implies that the house has not been inhabited for some time.  If this is the case you must check that the house is still legally a house, and if not make it a condition of sale that you can get a CU to "convert it back to a house".

[bigears]

Beware english builders, french artisan costs are high and don't assume one of them will project manage for you.  Good project management can save a fortune, best done by you on site.  Work out if the done up property will be worth more than the money you sink into it, if its a cheap area you might find it doesn't.  Do your research now,  Good luck.  Best to walk away from five good projects than buy a bad one.

[John Sergant]

Thanks for all your comments - the house is connected to the main sewer but only at one end and it would not be practical to run from the far end as the ground slopes the wrong way.  The house is quoted as built 1900

The main work on the house is the roof, then electrics then new bathroom.  The house is not in bad shape, needs a lot of TLC and paint, the external walls are crack free in the ancient render and there are no cracks inside, the decor is at least 50 years old so it is easy to see what you are buying.  I have over estimated on the costs (I hope) and will do 95% of the work,  but can not find prices quickly for the drain connection

 

 

 

[gosub]

The connection to the main sewerage pipe  can only be made by an authorized company, usually it's the local water company. Mine cost around €1300.

[Nick Trollope]

OK, perhaps 700€/SqM, if you do it all yourself, using Artisans only where you cannot do the work yourself. This is based on several years development experience (here and in the UK).

BTW, a Tableau for a (my bloody french keyboard doesnt have a "greater than" symbol on it) 100SqM property could have 5 ID's - these alone could cost you 400€.

Things are expensive here.

 

[Chancer]

[quote user="Nick Trollope"]

OK, perhaps 700€/SqM, if you do it all yourself, using Artisans only where you cannot do the work yourself. This is based on several years development experience (here and in the UK).

BTW, a Tableau for a (my bloody french keyboard doesnt have a "greater than" symbol on it) 100SqM property could have 5 ID's - these alone could cost you 400€.

Things are expensive here.

[/quote]

Agree with all you that say Nick.

I had never yet needed the > or the < symbols but I found them after much searching on my French keyboard, bottom left corner by the shift key [;-)]

Other forum users have had to show me how to use the circonflex and € signs though [:)]

[Nick Trollope]

Oh yeah!!!! >>>><<<<<

€ is easy on my laptop (there is a key)

çççç is equally easy, but accented e's, except ééé?

But this ^ on a letter? Beyond me. Bloody french.

 

[Clair]

[quote user="Nick Trollope"]But this ^ on a letter? Beyond me. Bloody french. [/quote]

the ^ is on the key next to the left of the £ sign.

Type it just before your type the vowel and both will appear as one: â ê î ô û.

Same with the ¨ (on the same key, but with the shift key)

[toffeeman]

The UK uses ring final circuits but these will be phased out in favour of radials. The UK regs numbers are also directly relateable to other EU nations regs. You could try :- http://www.cenelec.eu/Cenelec/Homepage.htm or this site for further information :- http://www.voltimum.com/ and then select your country/language. We own properties in Germany and Hungary and the regs are also very very similar there too ...thats what harmonisation is !! If you need to work in France and you need decennial liability insurance you can get that in the UK as well, annually at around 3K or by project .

 

[Anton Redman]

I would be very interested to read a quantified and sourced figure for the 92 % you quote. A superficial comparison on the distribution board in a UK new build with a T de E in the meanest French plein pied suggests there remains a huge difference.

[WJT]

Just on the subject of should I? We are still in the process of renovations and all I can say is if you want to live and breath for it and are prepared to run into all sorts of problems and surprises as well as tripling (sometimes more [:'(]) what you thought it would cost. Go for it.[:)]

If it were me after what I know now, I would add to the purchase price what you think it would cost (you will save loads because it will cost more than you think) for renovations and buy a beautiful finished house that someone else invested all of the heartache and financial loses and enjoy. [Www]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Anton Redman"]I would be very interested to read a quantified and sourced figure for the 92 % you quote. A superficial comparison on the distribution board in a UK new build with a T de E in the meanest French plein pied suggests there remains a huge difference.[/quote]

I was thinking along the same lines. I did look at the two websites given, one appeared commercial and the other www.cenelec.eu seemed difficult to get in to any of the papers because you need to be authorised.

In fairness there may be similar regulations in Europe outside of domestic house wiring but just by looking at a European power socket and distribution board its clear to even an unqualified novice (like me) that things are different and I can't see the UK changing over (as was suggested) in the next few years. I am sure we would have seen something on UK TV about this major change (imagine having to sit down and replace all those plugs [:'(] ). I also doubt that France would allow 'twin and earth' cabling like there is in the UK although I have seen this installed in a badly, owner renovated, wired house.

Personally I would leave all electricary stuff to a proper registered French electrician. There are some websites that have information on French household wiring like www.leroymerlin.fr and many of the Brico shops sell books on the subject for those that want to have a go. Just be warned that if you do 'have a go' (and you are not a registered French electrician) you may invalidate your home insurance, never mind what EU law states, its up to the insurance company what will they accept.

[tonyv]

[quote user="Quillan"]Just be warned that if you do 'have a go' (and you are not a registered French electrician) you may invalidate your home insurance, never mind what EU law states, its up to the insurance company what will they accept.[/quote]

Well, indeed, but that needs to be taken in context.

If your house burns down due to faulty self-installed wiring, then, yes, you're correct. If, however your house is burgled, then the state of tthe wiring is irrelevant, Similarly, if it burns down due to a kitchen fire, nothing to do with the wiring, then IMO, they'll have to accept the claim. This is no different from the UK.

The bottom line, therefore, is that if you have sufficient confidence in your workmanship, (I have) and you've abided by the normes, then an electrical fire is extrmely unlikely, and your insurance will cover other eventualities.

Finally, nowhere in my insurance policy can I find any exclusions relating to DIY wiring/plumbing/building. If it did, then the majority of my neighbours would be uninsured.

[BIG MAC]

Whoa up there!

If your house is damaged say by a chip pan fire and a smart loss adjuster spots that there is a problem with some other aspect of the property which may have led to the Insurer not taking your business then there is every chance that the claim will be repudiated and the policy voided. When entering the Insurance contract we are required to act in the 'Utmost good faith' (Uberimae fidei etc.) and declare all material facts which could be prejudicious.

Rarely is there a clause which details DIY as an exclusion to policy as to comply with the policy all works (DIY or not) should comply with that required by the standards and regulations of the day (Local  and Statutory authorities compliance clause in the UK)

If you have a burst pipe and its is the plumbers poor work which is proven to be the problem then your insurer may settle the claim but under subbrogation pursue the plumber on your behalf to recover costs as there is liability.

All a bit draconian but anyone who thinks an Insurer wont look to avoid a 200,000€ claim if it can be demonstrated clearly that there is good reason to do so would, in my opinion be a bit niave.

[Chancer]

Quillan has hit the nail on the head regarding French insurers.

 

[quote user="Quillan"]

[quote user="Anton Redman"][/quote]

I never mind what EU law states, its up to the insurance company what will they accept.

[/quote]