British builders - a note of caution

[Russethouse]

 

You really just don't get it, I quoted your words right back at you, so why  do you think its OK for you to say what you did about builders, making a blanket statement about them coming to France  being on the run or with something to hide? When I quoted it back to you you have taken offense and been aggressive, so isn't saying the same about builders offensive to them ? Yes it is !

PS.  Right now I can hear the trains coming into Reading Station, I'm 7 miles from Henley and 15 miles from Marlow ( I was there today actually, a lovely  place)

[Quillan]

[quote user="woolybanana"]

Right Quillan, I want a foto of you in a pinny!!!!!

[/quote]

Wooly, trust me you don't.  [;-)]

[Quillan]

[quote user="Russethouse"]

 

You really just don't get it, I quoted your words right back at you, so why  do you think its OK for you to say what you did about builders, making a blanket statement about them coming to France  being on the run or with something to hide? When I quoted it back to you you have taken offense and been aggressive, so isn't saying the same about builders offensive to them ? Yes it is !

PS.  Right now I can hear the trains coming into Reading Station, I'm 7 miles from Henley and 15 miles from Marlow ( I was there today actually, a lovely  place)

[/quote]

Calm down RH there only the infantile comments of a cafe owner from Acton. Full English, two slices and a mug of tea please and make it snappy [:D] .

[jon]

It is you who does not get it Russet House!

You fail to admit and accept that the building trade is tottally different to being a chef!
Perhaps I need to explain that when you take on a builder...usually a deposit of 30 or 50%[ and usually large sums of money] there is little you can do when something goes wrong. There have been many cases when problems have occuured when work had started and does not progress. There have been cases when jobs have been a shambles because the builders did not have much or any real expereience...all the references in the world can be useless when you find that the builder will not answer the phone messages.He has little or no intention of finishing your job because another job has come along and he and his team prefer to start another b ecause a big deposit hits their bank a/c.The last two "builders" we had in London came highly recomended by one of my best friends...however the builder really was the father and his team....who wrote the quote and then the job was passed to his son and his friend. Son and friend would spend their time avoiding work.....when they did do something it was bad workmanship.They were unstable and very agressive towards me.This was all due to a habit they had developed.

PersonallyI have very little experience with good builders who are British and I have needed work carried out on several buisness projects and in our home through the years.

The French builders have been good...professional.....and they behave in a polite manner....give proper bills.

As a chef in a restaurant .....the customer eats the food and then pays! Can you send a meal back?????

So if a chef has a restaurant and does not pay his taxes.....I am sure that he will be found.

You can not get credit card machines without full bank references and proof of stability.

How is a chef going to rip you off? Ruin your property?

Having left UK as I have said and paid my way...............and plenty of tax! I feel that it is time that you examined the situation more gracefully; we can cook and we operate our buisness in the correct manner.

Would you perhaps compare the situation.....builders and accountnats!!!!!!

 

 

 

[Thebiga]

All I can say about british builders is pretty much on price really. The inlaws had several quotes from builders french & brits and the brit quotes were way and above the french ones by a long way. Anyway they went for the french ones ended up with a very nice job done in good time.

Did have some british chaps sent here a while back when we were thinking of having Navitron solar heating for the pool showed them the job, Um & Ah , Um,Ah well it will be this much!!!! Don't think so. For me they were supposed to be the expert fitters in our area but for me they had already lost the job when they came in the gate. A old rusty transit van on british plates with the tax ran out 3 years before! They must know you have a certain amount of time to change your vehicle over etc if you are living here. The other van was smaller but just as bad looking but was at least on french plates. That said it all about them to me before they even looked at the job, But I felt obliged to show them the job as they had come some way but they were never going to get it. Also the navitron seller never got the order either sending such bad reps and then phoning and e-mailing constantly to try and get the business.

I hate being hassled.  

[BIG MAC]

I am responsible for the performance of 29 Building contractors throughout the UK/ Ireland/ IOM (so probably ok to comment on that if I should so choose). The point I make is that even having undergone what I regard as due diligence, market forces and local conditions can change.

Matey whom I could suggest made off with my money didn't, at least I don't believe there was intent to do so, what he did do was trade into a position of insolvency and realised too late the implications. There was a steady order book (About 60% English) and a a few largish jobs on the go....Recession hit and a couple of English people decided to try every trick in the book to avoid paying. Builder still had a wage bill and in the space of a few months writing was on the wall.

I wont add the Guy to the never ending list of dodgy builders working in France because his work was to the required standard. I will add him to the list of people who owe me that's all I can do. I can also add to the list the sorry pedants that turned the builder over don't order what you can't pay for.

Restaurants and cooks (Why everyone with a white jacket is suddenly a chef I don't know) I am not qualified to comment really I like good food and occassionaly will use restaurants. If I like them I go back if I don't like them I don't go back.

There are 'Chefs' out there who are not formally qualified  but can cook. There are 'builders' out there who are not formally qualified but can build.

When placing our orders it's good to know whether the person carrying out the work is competent (Not neccessarily qualified) and that works will be delivered within the law of the land (In this case France)

Restaurants are premises and easier to regulate by the authorities (Even although I am sure there will be elements of black labour etc in many)

House repairs can pop up anytime anywhere and easier to bend or break the rules. The main intent behind breaking the rules and working on the black is to defraud the French Government of their due and creates unfair competition for the guys who are doing their best to stay afloat working with the system.

In my opinion working on the black is an endemic problem in France and creates a larger tax burden for the 'honest' guys some who may even be driven to workig outside the law just to afford to remain within in it for the majority of the time.

Bottom line a builder can rush you for thousands a cook may give you a dose of the runs. The ropey builder can do a disappearing act...bit more difficult for the restaurant.

[Théière]

[quote user="jon"]

How is a chef going to rip you off? Ruin your property?

[/quote]

Not maybe your property, could ruin your life though. A coyboy chef in a restaurant neally killed my Sister-in-Law with E-Coli. It took months to recover before being able to get back to work and the financial problems that caused.

There are bad situations caused by improper personel throughout all industries and services. Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Dentists, School Heads and teachers, etc, etc.

[sid]

Surely when selecting an 'artisan' or his 'enterprise', whether British or French, it is only common sense to ask around and find out about his previous performance. I can't believe that any builder would suddenly become a rogue; he'll have always been like that, and loads of other people will have the same complaints. If you go out and pick a guy just because he's easier to talk to then heaven help you with your other dealings in this, your new country, and I have absolutely no sympathy.

My advice would always be to try and use local labour. Everyone in the village/locality will know about him and assuming that you get good feedback he'll also have his reputation to look after. I've spoken to so many British newcomers here who just take the first "estimate" (usually not a proper "devis") just because they can't be bothered to try and speak to the locals. If we were still back in the UK it's exactly the sort of attitude that gets criticised there; foreign immigrants living in their own closed communities.

Sid

[Russethouse]

 Jon, Of course builders and chefs are different, thats not the problem here is it? The problem is that you sit fit to criticise a whole group of people,implying that they are running away from something etc and just expect every one to accept that blanket criticism, but when the word builder is changed to that of your own trade you don't like it.

Have you heard of irony ?

Its not about me, my knowledge of France, where I live or anything else.

Of course a chef can rip you off, over charge  for a mediocre meal, that happened to us recently in a place I had much higher expectations of,  not share the tips, especially if the bill is paid by credit card etc...I expect some people who had paid ££££ to eat at a Gordon Ramsay establishment and then found far from being fresh it was pretty much 'boil in the bag' and made else where might have felt ripped off too.[:@]

 

[Quillan]

In some areas builders and chefs are the same. By this I mean they work in the service industry. In other areas, like what they produce for instance, they are clearly different.

If you go to a restaurant and order a steak and chips its easy, you can tell if the food is good or bad and either send it back, don't pay or both. If you ask a builder to build a wal and its not straight its a bit obvious. The issues appear when you go for something more complicated. If you ask a builder to build say an arch how do you know its built properly, the fact its there in front of you and looks OK does not necessarily say it is or it isn't. Likewise if you order a more exotic meal how do you know it tastes like it should do. OK you may have had it elsewhere and the one you have just eaten tastes different but which one is right. If you complain and say it does not taste the same as you had elsewhere then the chef will probably tell you his/hers is right and the one you had before was wrong. Basically you get what your given and its the particular chefs 'vision' of what it should taste like and it will be very difficult for you to get the meal 'adjusted' to your taste (unless its something like an undercooked steak).

As to complaining in a restaurant, I have never had any compunction about not paying if the meal is bad and like others have said I simply won't go back. But then is that also not the same as a builder, if you don't like his/hers work you don't use them again. With regards to the effect that bad workmanship has in building then the same can be said of a bad chef. If the food is awful and you have gone with your family and friends for say a 40th birthday the whole evening can be ruined by a bad meal and its not like a building where you can knock it down and start again, the moment has been and gone never to return again.

So is it fair to compair builders and chefs, I think yes it is, they both provide a service and bad service is bad service whatever and wherever it is.

[La Guerriere]

For irony you really need to get it from an ironmonger, or if you need it cut to size a steel fabricator. Make sure you get good French iron (which will be stamped NF) otherwise you may invalidate your iron insurance.

[jon]

A bad meal in a restaurant is a sad experience.....but the tragedy of dealing with druggy builders was much greater...to my mind.

I do not have the same principals as all other chefs and restauranters!
So before you condem just note that I am....as I have said  a very careing person....probably too honest for my lown good!

Because the chefs with the rough edage...who maybe live on the edge seem to get away with blue murder...rather than just spelling mistakes.

I do not open tins and bags!!!! I do not have a love affair with the freezer.

We have clients coming from America tomorrow to cook.,eat and enjoy five days with us.

This would not happen if we were cowboys.

Some of you will never understand....perhaps you prefer not to....

[Théière]

[quote user="jon"]

A bad meal in a restaurant is a sad experience.....but the tragedy of dealing with druggy builders was much greater...to my mind. Or druggy kitchen staff for that matter.

I do not have the same principals as all other chefs and restauranters!
So before you condem just note that I am....as I have said  a very careing person....probably too honest for my lown good!

Because the chefs with the rough edage...who maybe live on the edge seem to get away with blue murder...rather than just spelling mistakes.

I do not open tins and bags!!!! I do not have a love affair with the freezer.

We have clients coming from America tomorrow to cook.,eat and enjoy five days with us.

This would not happen if we were cowboys. Americans love cowboys, most of them were cowboys [:D]

Some of you will never understand....perhaps you prefer not to....

[/quote]

So you don't like generalisations either then? So don't spread them around.

[Russethouse]

jon, not every builder in France is a rogue running away from something, anymore than every chef is, it happens, but blanket condemnations are very unfair.

So if  we promise not to judge you by the deeds of less scrupulous chefs perhaps you'd be good enough to do the same for builders and treat them as individuals, not judge all of them on a few bad experiences

[Quillan]

[quote user="jon"]

A bad meal in a restaurant is a sad experience.....but the tragedy of dealing with druggy builders was much greater...to my mind.

I do not have the same principals as all other chefs and restauranters!
So before you condem just note that I am....as I have said  a very careing person....probably too honest for my lown good!

Because the chefs with the rough edage...who maybe live on the edge seem to get away with blue murder...rather than just spelling mistakes.

I do not open tins and bags!!!! I do not have a love affair with the freezer.

We have clients coming from America tomorrow to cook.,eat and enjoy five days with us.

This would not happen if we were cowboys.

Some of you will never understand....perhaps you prefer not to....

[/quote]

Only Americans? My Creme Brulee is so famous we have had guests from.:

America (including a native American), South America (Peru), Canada (French and English speaking), Romania, Bulgaria, Finland, Russia, China, Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Russia, Spain, Catalonia (just to be on the safe side [;-)]), Italy, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Holland (they bring their own potatoes you know - that's a Dutch joke), Germany, Newfoundland, Grand Canneries, South Africa (Percy Montgomery stayed for two nights a couple of years back but we have had more) and Portuguese not to mention a lot of French and one or two English. All of which have left glowing comments in our guest books. Sorry to bore other forum members but I thought as its so important to mention American visitors (twice now) I thought I would add my tuppence worth and brag a little as well [:-))]. I also have a freezer, Magimix and a tin opener, does that make me special?

[jon]

Quinny keep your pinny on!

I am sure that your creme brulee is world famouse.Do drop a line to Raymond Blanc he would probably like the receipe.

   Russet house are you blushing like the russet apple.....PEOPLE STARTED making comments about builders and it went on to Anti France and anti Barbara Deane.

MODERATORS...VERY MODERATE.

[Russethouse]

Me blush ? - that will be the day [;-)]

 No need to shout, jon.

No I'm not anti Barbara Deane, I'm anti blanket generalization

[dragonrouge]

I am now off to other things which need my attention so I shall now be missing from this wonderful forum.

However my final swansong. Lived here long enough to know that there are good bad and indifferent in any walk of life. It is a percentage game sometimes you win sometimes you do not. Do the research limit the risk that is what we all do or should do in life.

Have never used a British builder here in France save for some odd jobs and which in fairness went well.

My approach has always been to try to keep the revenue in the village where we have lived provided of course the devis and within reason.

To date be in Normandie or here in Vendee not too many problems.

Now back to the Uk again a balanced approach is some good some bad. And let me move the argument from British to Welsh and I obviously are from that famed country. I have had again good bad and indifferent experience from my own countryfolk.

Thus I say to generalise and to attach a lable to British builders is not the way forward.

For your bad experiences there may be three fold to the opposite.,

I wish you all well.

[Théière]

Bye Dragonrouge, take care and good luck with pastures new.

[jon]

No shouting just bad typing...and to be honest I am very tired.

Can not resist the forum...sometimes.

But tucking in the blankets....I kind of feel that there is a little anti France in the house at berkshire!

Ironic is it not!

[woolybanana]

So, to conclude, builders of any nationality can or cannot be bad as with chefs and any other trade.

Warraloadvhotairthatwas.

Still we now know that Quillan wears a frilly pink pinny; the rumours is that he wears nothing else when cooking and dusting. And that RH is or is not whatever.

[Quillan]

[quote user="jon"]

Quinny keep your pinny on!

[/quote]

Actually rather than the Creme Brulee I think its the pinny that keeps them coming back for more. That and the Gobbling Teasmaid.

[woolybanana]

How dare you call your wife a Gobbling Teasmade!!![6]

[jon]

Is there a Mrs Quinny....who wears the trousers and keeps the steam in the teapot.ic

If any of you rogues come this far south I will show you our kitchen.....

No builders please.....life is peacefull here!

 

[Quillan]

Who said it was the wife [:P] . I thought all chefs wore trousers and all builders a builders crack. I prefer The Naked Chef approach but it can lead to terrible accidents especially when barbecuing the sausages. [;-)]