Horizontal ballons

[Chancer]

One of my loft studios for reasons of space will  need a horizontal ballon located in les combles perdus.

I have studied a couple of them in various brico's, one was as I expected with the fittings on the underside (with the ballon in the horizontal position) and bloomin expensive, the Brico-depot offering appeared to be a standard ballon without mounting brackets and a couple of sangles and fixing eyes to strap it to the floor or (and I am not kidding) ceiling.

I checked it carefully against a normal horizontal one of the same make and capacity and all the fittings are in exactly the same position, bref it looks identical and would require an elbow in order to fit the groupe de securité.

All that I can surmise is that the hot outlet has a bend in the internal pipe to put it at the top of the cylinder when on its side, even if it doesnt by the positioning of its axis there would only be a small air pocket above it.

I am tempted to try using a standard one on its side, I will of course do a bench test but has anyone tried this before? Should I take out some buildings insurance before having a play?

The two ballons in the loft conversion will be the hardest to replace and I have already got a pair of high spec Pacific ones with titanium anodes and anti-corrosion circuitry for these two apartments, I dont really want to wreck one of them trying something that perhaps was never going to work.

All comments and suggestions welcomed

[Anton Redman]

All I have ever read says that if you use the one which is meant to be mounted horiziontally it will use at most 20 % more electricity if mounted vertically

[La Guerriere]

A vertical one can't be used horizontally because of the position of the hot water outlet tube. I can see no reason why there should be any difference in power consumption.

[Théière]

In Leroy Merlin they have cut away demo versions on display will that help in any way?

[Chancer]

Thank you for your replys and please keep them coming.

I have looked at the cut away ones which were to illustrate the different types of element and protection etc, I think it was in Leroy but may have been Bricomarché.

I too cant see why the being on its side would use any more electric but then I also dispute that old calced up elements use twice as much electricity as where can the heat go? they are so well insulated.

I believe that they will in fact "work" on their side if used on an axis where the hot outlet is the upper one (this is exactly the instruction on the Bricodepot ones), having looked a the cutaway ones it is very close to the side wall (which will become the top) of the cylinder. There will be a space above which will be compressed and heated air which I foresee could cause some burping whilst the hot is being purged by the incoming cold but I think the same situation prevails in the normal orientation albeit with a reduced volume.

The problem if there is one is something else which I am hoping someone can suggest before I try what may turn to to be a catastrophic bench test.

[Le Plombier]

Vertical ones will work laid on their side but not as well as a horizontal one

In both designs the cold connection is extended internally to the bottom of the ballon, this allows for production and storage of hot water correctly

A vertical tank used on its side will introduce cold water in to the middle of the ballon with the result that hot water may be supplied at a lower temperature

The electric elements are in different positions in both types but they are positioned in each type for maximum performance

Horizontal ones are more expensive but if that is what you need that is what you should buy

Le Plombier

[Le Plombier]

Sorry I did mean to add that you will probably never completely remove the air from inside a vertical ballon on it's side

Le Plombier

[Punch]

I buy and install universal Chauffe Eau's that can be mounted either horozontally or vertically. I have installed around three so far this year and they are excellent, as they have features that are not usual on a chauffe eau such as; an inbuilt on off switch and  an adjustable thermostat on the outside of the casing, and come pre-cabled, so no fiddling around taking plastic covers off. Price of around 261 euros TTC to the trade for a 200 litre. I have not seen the inside design/layout but there are 2 x 1200 watt elements inside which are stéatite ane can be changed without draining down.

[La Guerriere]

Punch, could you pm details please ?

[Punch]

Details Here - third article down are universal chauffe eau's .

http://www.robinetterie-hammel.fr/ssfamille.php?fam=5&ssfam=1

[Chancer]

Seemingly the horizontal Pacific ballons (mine are vertical) are more efficient than the horizontal ones, I could not work out how for a 150 litre BDC they were quoting something like 291 litres of hot water until I found this page.

http://www.pacific.tm.fr/pdf/fiche_drakkar.pdf

You learn something new every day.

[NormanH]

All comments and suggestions welcomed

As it is only a studio, so presumably for one person, do you need a ballon?

I use a chuaffe-eau rapide, which does for washing up and a shower for one person.in the studio I let, and have had no complaints.

It wouldn't do for a bath.

[La Guerriere]

Why not ? I would think the shower would be a bit of a dribble, but there y'go.

[Chancer]

Norman.

Unfortunately it has to have a bath, albeit with a shower rose as there is not sufficient headroom in the space available for a traditional shower enclosure.

I havnt described it very well but there is a purlin that would run through the side at high level of a shower enclosure, a bath with large shower rose fitted to the purlin is a good solution to a tricky space problem. And it also means that during the amenagement or periods of inoccupation I can have the luxury of taking a bath, something I have not done since March 2004 [:-))]

It has been a nightmare packaging these 2 bathrooms, You can just stand up in the bath to take a shower as the roof slopes down sharply behind you,  if you are tall you can open the velux window for a bit more space or to take an eco douche pluviale [:)]

The sloping roof makes the physics of using the toilet (it is tucked under it) somewhat of a challenge, sitting down to lay a cable will only will be comfortable for those with a permanent stoop, any tenant is likely to have one after a few days anyway!

Men wanting to stand up to take a pee (although I suspect that some of the women around here do also) will only be able to get close enough to make this manouvre possible in one of three cases:

Rubber jointed individuals that can bend over backwards.

Those blessed to be endowed with equipment suitably large to be able to aim backwards through their legs.

Those with sufficient head of steam to bridge the gap whilst simultaneously bumping their head.

I did seriously think about fitting a "toilette à la Turque" which would have sold all of the problems in a seul coup but couldnt face being asked to unblock it [:P]

When I place the advert I will have to say that it is suitable for a dwarf with ................... I darent go any further [:D]

[Anton Redman]

 I take it you have ruled out simply putting the cylinder immediately under the bathroom but downstairs ?

[Chancer]

That would be in someone elses apartment on the firts floor where I will have other space issues to contend with, it would also be a no no for Consuel.

Mind you I could put the ballons for all the apartments in my cave, it could then pretend that it was a nuclear missile bunker [:)]

I have created a small crawl space, a kind of grenier within a grenier and could put both the ballons up there but even there it is a struggle to fit them in and it would be a nightmare later on come replacement time.

A horizontal one (or a normal one on its side more likely) in les combles perdu will not eat into any of the precious space.