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Fosses, SPANC recommendations and then....?


mint
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Does anyone have experience of a non-conforming fosse, getting the SPANC report with its recommendations and being unable physically (not enough land, clearance from boundaries, wells, etc) to carry out the works?

What then happens?  If you own a property that you cannot legally drain, does that mean you have the ultimate White Elephant?

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Pat, I can't thank you enough.  Have just spent the last however long reading all the stuff plus the relevant threads mentioned.

Rivetting stuff indeed![:P]

Funny how all of this info just passed me by because we had our brand new all-singing, all-dancing fosse installed in 2007.

Now, we are interested in a house with an outmoded system and Square One is the only place to go.

You are a star, Patf, take a bow!  Gros bisous...

 

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If the area is teeny weeny then the alternative is a fosse étanche, referred to as a fosse d"accumulation by SPANC practitioners.

I know you speak french well so I wont bore you with mini translations but leave you to peruse the following thread at your leisure.

http://www.spanc29.net/forum/index.php?topic=1362.msg10673#msg10673

Whilst in principle the fosse d'accumulation is simple but in practice the volumetrics are problematic.

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Is this a nice can of worms I see in front of me?

More worryingly, the present owner doesn't seem the least bit concerned and I just hope he will do something about ensuring the legal drainage of his property.

I mean I don't mind getting the work done but, as he is the owner, I am hoping that he gets the permissions, approvals in place so that we can proceed......

Now, what on earth makes me think I need all this hassle again?  I got it all with this present place only 3 years ago; must be a glutton for punishment.

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I have another question and, if it's utterly daft and fluffy, just tell me as I need an answer, OK?

Is there such a thing as a minimum and maximum size for these new drainage beds that are nowadays required for fosses to be compliant?

For example, we have a 3 bedroom 3 litre capacity fosse, we have sandy, permeable soil and our filter beds are about  11 m by 7 m.

Could we have "got away" with a smaller filter area?

If you have a mature, planted garden with some semi permanent structures such as pergolas, terraces, arches, etc can the SPANC (powers that be) make you dig those up in order to fit in your new, massive filter beds?

BTW, I'm not asking these questions about my present house (got all the drainage arrangements sorted on it) but these questions relate to the house I am intending (better say "hoping") to buy.

You see, the garden is one of its attractions and, frankly, I'm not sure I'd like the property half as much if the garden were to be destroyed by the installation of a new fosse. 

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[quote user="pachapapa"]

DTU 64-1 prescribes a width of 5 metres for filtre à sable vertical drainé.

The length will depend on EH, number of users.

But 35 square meters is fairly typical ie 7m X 5 metres.

The 7m X 11m seems an overestimation.

[/quote]

In accordance with the 5 metre minimum width for the filter bed the link below is useful; importantly it includes the XP DTU 64-1 of 2007.

This increased the area of the filter bed and also modified the definition of principal rooms.

http://rhonedev.erasme.org/file/idocumentsattaches/anc_fiche15.pdf

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Pachapapa, many thanks for the links.

So, how are principal rooms defined?

I looked at the size of the filter beds recommended but my main problem is finding a properly scaled representation of the plot.  The owner emailed a cadastral plan (1:2000), but no scale drawn on the plan and then I looked at Google Maps and still not sure of the accuracy.

Might have to go there and physically measure the damned plot, or at least, OH will have to do this.........[:D]

But, many thanks for the input.

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You should be able to get an idea of the dimensions of the "parcelle" by using the online cadastral survey.

There are a set of tools that can be used to take measurements, one anchors on a corner and then range out with the cursor using the mouse.

If you have the Identification of the Sheet ( letters ) and Parcelle (numbers) you will get there quicker than starting with the Départment No.

The navegation seeems a bit convoluted at first but you will soon get the hang of it.

Away you go!

http://www.cadastre.gouv.fr/scpc/listerCommune.do?useLastFwd&listeParcelleValeurSortField=triParcellePuisFeuille&listeParcelleValeurSortOrder=up

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[quote user="sweet 17"]

Might have to go there and physically measure the damned plot, or at least, OH will have to do this.........[:D]

[/quote]

Try this: http://www.cadastre.gouv.fr/

Enter the location

zoom in to the best suitable scale

select Outils Avances, and select whichever measurement tool you need, and follow the instructions

A bit fiddly, but with some perseverence it gives a surprisingly accurate measurement

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Pachapapa and tonyv, great, brilliant.  Have looked, OH has traced the plans straight from the VDU (yes!). 

As you both say, should be able to get the dims and scale off the display.

Just need to be able to get the fosse in as recommended. 

There is a lawned area which could be dug up and re-instated.  Just don't want any of the established garden disturbed.

When it's all done and dusted, I shall then be able to know where we're going and make an offer without putting in unnecessary clauses suspensives.

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You can measure directly on your screen...like pulling a piece of elastic with the mouse moving the arrow thingy.

I have measured on the ground and on the PC screen with about 20 cms error over 30 metres.

For example I have just measured from corner of garden to corner of cottage through solid rock.

Mesurer > Distances

Résultat de la mesure : 35.07 mètres (donnée indicative)

Cet outil vous permet de mesurer la distance entre deux points.
Veuillez sélectionner avec votre souris les deux extrémités de la distance que vous souhaitez mesurer. > Annuler un point (touche Retour)
> Annuler l'opération (touche Echap)

Les mesures obtenues n'ont qu'une valeur indicative et ne sont pas opposables

There is also an option to print out, for this you can choose between 1/2000 and 1/200

You can also draw things on the plan;,etc,etc.

 

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Principal Rooms are defined by the relevant Article of the Code of Construction and Housing.

Code de la Construction et de l'Habitation
Article R*111-1-1
Un logement ou habitation comprend, d'une part, des pièces principales destinées au séjour ou au sommeil, éventuellement des chambres isolées et, d'autre part, des pièces de service, telles que cuisines, salles d'eau, cabinets d'aisance, buanderies, débarras, séchoirs, ainsi que, le cas échéant, des dégagements et des dépendances.

Your indoor swimming pool with lilo for wooly is in my opinion a "dépendance".

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If it's any help we had a bionest fosse installed, as 1) we'd had problems with a collapsing sand filter at the last property and didn't want to go down the same route again, 2) although the garden is a good size (around 750 sq mtrs) at the back of the property, we wanted space for lawn, veggie patch and a future sunken swimming pool.

The existing holding tank obviously had to be updated when we purchased the place so we called in the SPANC guy, discussed our situation and asked if there was an alternative to the sand filter soak away. We also asked him to recommend a local installation guy which he couldn't/wouldn't but gave us a list of firms he had worked with. One of the firms came out to inspect the site and also discuss the options with the SPANC guy, and they came up with the twin bionest tanks, which we had installed (the bill was nearly 1k cheaper than the sandfilter system). The only initial problem for us is that they are meant to be eco friendly, but the air is pumped round 24/7 by a mini generator. One year on, it is functioning fine with no noticeable hike in leccy costs, and has allowed us the space to do as we please with the garden.

 

Look at www.bionest.ca  : a Canadien system, available in France. 

 

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Thank you for the clear explanations, Pachapapa.  Got the plan all traced out and will draw out the drainage field to scale and play around with it on the plan.

Zeb, your system interests me a lot and I have managed a quick look at the link you provided.  I see there is a contact number for France but no website so I presume they are not installing vast numbers of these in France.

Still, if it does the job and will be approved, that's all that matters.

What really interested me was the bit where they say that you can have your present fosse adapted to use their system.  Well, there is an existing concrete fosse and, if it could be adapted, it should save time and money.

The upshot of all the kind replies on this thread has meant that there are different ways of solving the fosse problem for us and I shall now probably proceed to make the owner an offer.

Thank you for your patience and help, everybody.[:D] 

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The regulation of the Arrêté 2009 is unlikely before March 2010, so it would be wise not to do any construction on your ANC before that time.

Keep your options open as it were; the incorporation of the existing fosse toutes eaux into the upgraded system is attractive and a µSTEP could be viable.

In particular the µSTEPs that have recirculation of accumulated "boues" back to the FTE.

There are 3 reasons in my opinion:

1) Well defined anaerobic and aerobic treatment stages increasing purification of waste matter.

2) The french authorities and SPANCs hate µSTEPs as a result controls of them will require annual "vidange" of "boues".

3) The Arrêté will change the regime for "vidange" of FTEs from a period of time to when the "boues" reach a level of 50 % of the utilisable height in the fosse.

I dont like zeolite systems!

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Oh, la, la! Pacha, mon cher!  You are now giving me more credit for intelligence than I'm entitled to as I don't understand a lot of what you're telling me.

Que-ce que c'est, l'Arrêté 2009 and why is it better for me to wait till March 2010?

Also what is ustep (see, can't even do the lettering?)

OH agrees with you about zeolite systems but I don't know enough about them to agree or disagree.

Please, explain yourself or stand in danger of being perpetually misunderstood!

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Hi  pachapapa

Many thanks for the cadastre link!

I have read these posts as we will also have to re-do the fosse.  I checked out the link and found my cadastre, but some things I don't understand : for example what are the red blobs for - some plots on my area have them some don't. I have tried to work out what they mean, but can't find anything.

Any ideas ?

Many thanks

Tegwini

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Its poncy shorthand for Micro STation d'EPurage i.e. any sort of tank system with discs, stirrers, air pumps whatever to stir up the poo and speed up the processing. They certainly work, but the various different SPANCs etc are not yet fully convinced that they do the necessary and that the effluent coming out can straight into the environment. A lot of them are still wanting a filter bed after the system which is arguably not necessary.
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Thank you for the explanation, La Guerriere.  If you'd told me when I lived back in the UK that, in coming to France, I'd have to contend with all this effluent, I'd have pulled a face.

But now, faced with all this smelly brown substance, I guess I have no choice but to grasp this particular nettle.

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[quote user="tegwini"]
Hi  pachapapa
Many thanks for the cadastre link!

I have read these posts as we will also have to re-do the fosse.  I checked out the link and found my cadastre, but some things I don't understand : for example what are the red blobs for - some plots on my area have them some don't. I have tried to work out what they mean, but can't find anything.
Any ideas ?
Many thanks
Tegwini
[/quote]

If you log on to the link below you will find an example of the use of the cadastral plan (Peault, Vendée).

A search using the address of the property will identify the Parcelle in which the property is situated by a red spot  (point rouge).

http://www.peault.fr/content/category/6/64/108/

Please refer to penultimate line below lower image which contains red spot.

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