Jump to content

Brico Depot Boilers


Grecian
 Share

Recommended Posts

After a lot of deliberating we have decided to replace our 30-year oil boiler with another oil boiler (sorry Andrew we did give solar a lot of consideration, but are not prepared to spend that sort of money as things stand at this moment in time). Then mission impossible started, trying to get a plumber French or English to actually come and give us a devis, but praise The Lord we are now the proud owners of a devis after a plumber graced us with his presence (it has only taken about 3 months to get this far)!

The said plumber is quoting us for a Brico Depot heating only oil boiler, which comes in at about €850, good price I thought but after reading various threads regarding Brico Depot kit I am not sure if this is the way to go. Reading the spec of the boiler on their website it sounds alright but I am not sure why it is so much cheaper than the rest. Any comments regarding Brico Depot boilers would be most appreciated, especially if you have had one fitted. Also any recommendations for any alternative would also be appreciated.

We were considering going for a condensing oil boiler, but after looking at the prices which seem to start from about €4000 upto anything nearer €8000 I would think it would have to do a lot of condensing to get our money back over a reasonable amount of time, so maybe the cheaper option on initial outlay may be the way to go at the moment.

One other query while I am here, again does anyone have any thoughts as to having an all-in-one boiler for heating and hot water, or splitting the two and having a separate boiler, and a chauffe-eau for hot water. Obviously we would save on oil, but the price of electricity is not exactly cheap here in France, so I am not sure there is any advantage in having the two split.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A boiler is a long-term purchase and I would have real doubts about saving a few Euros by buying some obscure kit rather than a major brand. Short-term savings will soon disappear if you have to repeat the exercise in five years time.

I might even question whether a plumber who sources the boiler from secondary brands rather than the mainstream is truly "serieux".

Similarly unless the house is mainly vacant during the winter I would do some careful comparisons of the potential savings to be made by using a condenser versus traditional boilers.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nothing wrong with Brico Depot oil fired boilers: most use the Lamborghini Brûleur: the main difference between these budget boilers and the up-scale jobbies is the esoteric electronic control kit.

We have many friends (French and English) still using oil fired boilers exceeding 20 and in a couple of cases 25 years of age: the Brûleur having been replaced, along with the other bits; such as the Vase de expansion, pump and valves.

The core difference between older boilers and more modern kit is the heat exchanging capacity of the water jacket. Older units tended to enjoy cast iron water jackets: and many plombier swear cast iron cannot be bettered by modern pressed/welded/fabricated water jackets.

People using reconditioned cast iron antique rads will also boast of their efficiency.

The Brûleur contains the critical bits such as pressure pump, jetting and igntion.

Condensing Boilers: only truly efficient when operating at maximum output almost continuously: as already previously stated, any efficiency saving would be lost for a maison secondaire.

Domestic Hot Water: (DHW) people erroneously believe that heating hot water is "Free" if the boiler is enabled for heating: false assumption. More oil is used than CH alone: all boilers and rads are Heat-In-Heat Out systems.

The cheapest possible way to heat water in France for DHW purposes is to use a Ballon using electricity on cheap rate (i.e. Heures Plein/Heures Creuse), operated by a pulse switch which turns on at circa 12.00 midnight: and off at 08.00AM (Subject to region).

Cheap rate electricity, is far cheaper per Kw than Mazout (Red Diesel- Heating Oil): particularly in Autumn-Winter when the price always goes up rapidly!

In Spring-Summer-Early Autumn (Dependant again on location), who really needs to fire up a CH boiler: just for DHW?

Later, perhaps, consider (Again dependant on region) solar powered DHW: and save even more!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Gluestick"]

Condensing Boilers: only truly efficient when operating at maximum output almost continuously: as already previously stated, any efficiency saving would be lost for a maison secondaire.

[/quote]

 

The publicised efficiency of condensing boilers is only valid when they are operating in 'condensing mode' which is at or close to full load, any lower operating point gives absolutely no improvement over non-condensing units (it may be worse but I have no data on that). The enforcement (UK) of installation of condensing boilers is a 'con'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="powerdesal"]

The publicised efficiency of condensing boilers is only valid when they are operating in 'condensing mode' which is at or close to full load, any lower operating point gives absolutely no improvement over non-condensing units (it may be worse but I have no data on that). The enforcement (UK) of installation of condensing boilers is a 'con'.

[/quote]

Indeed, Steve.

And the way they have "Cheated" on this in UK is to downsize both boiler outputs and rad sizes so the system has to work continuously and therefore, ergo, it is always in condensing mode.

Now personally, one thing specifying has taught me time and again in engineering is that to paraphrase the old American dictum about engines "There aint no substitute for grunt!"

[:)]

If the system heat loss demands (e.g.) 25 Kw of heat input/period to maintain ambient temp. of x degs, then I rather like the capacity of say 35 Kw: otherwise, what happens when, unusually, the outside ambient temp. drops to say - 20 (And it has happened in P d C) as a cold front from Siberia hits?

Plus, of course, a continuously working system wears out much quicker.............

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As you say Gluey,

My CH design method was / is to claculate the heat demand in the normal accepted way using -1 deg C outside ambient, round up each room radiator size to the commercially available sizes (not forgetting the rad factor), total the demand, then add the DHW demand, finally choose a boiler rating that is above the total.

The DHW demand effectively gives a buffer capacity for additional CH demand in times of lower ambient.

 

edit, thats 'calculate', and the DHW demand figure is an arbitrary 'guestimate'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to go back for a moment to the OP's concerns. If you have grown up with gas CH boilers, where every component except possibly the pump is encased within a nice white stove enamelled casing, then it is an easy mistake to mentally apply the same preconception to French oil boilers.

The boiler is sold separately to the burner unit which sits on the outside and pokes its business end through a hole in the front of the boiler.

The burner is the delicate bit with all the moving parts: things which need servicing/go wrong/wear out. The boiler itself is in most cases (certainly in the case of the Brico Depot models) just a very heavy, ugly lump of cast iron. Provided it doesn't leak when it's connected up, and it has the soot swept out of it occasionally there's nothing to wear out or go wrong with it, and no reason to suppose it won't still be doing a very convincing impression of a central heating boiler in 100 years time.

The burners don't last forever, but they are simple to replace and surprisingly cheap. 

However, if you want a swish modern model which, as earlier poster have said, is probably made of spot-welded pressed steel but does have the attraction of a flash stove-enamelled case, and is well blessed with knobs, dials, bells and whistles, then be prepared to pay substantially more than the Brico price!

The price difference is not that great between a basic boiler + electric chauffeau and a combined boiler/ballon (from memory slightly in electricity's favour if you get a 200L chauffeau), but then you save all Spring/Summer/Autumn when the boiler is sleeping peacefully and the level in your oil tank remains constant.

 

p

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would like to thank everybody for their responses to my original query, some excellent advice given within them. Sorry for not thanking people earlier, but my computer got infected with a virus which even managed to disable Avast, I have had to reformat my hard drive, which was the relatively easy part, but then trying to get my computer to speak to my Livebox in the end I managed to get connected without using the disc supplied by Orange, and now connect to the internet via Internet Explorer, not really sure how I managed it, but it works so I am leaving well alone. But I digress.

Back on thread, I have decided to split the central heating from the domestic hot water, and have a chauffe eau fitted, as the boiler has now packed up completely we are without any domestic hot water (talk about hitting a man when he is down!), but fortunately I have made contact with another plumber who is coming to fit the chauffe eau on Wednesday.

Still not sure about the Brico Depot boiler, and the plumber who gave me the devis, so hopefully we have a French plumber coming next week to give us his devis, and see which boiler he is proposing to fit. Although I am not holding my breath that he will actually turn up, as I have already made contact with two other French plumbers, who both gave my a RDV but both never showed up. One final question regarding the cheap electricity during the night, does everybody in France get this option? We are on tarif bleu option de base puissance 9 kVA, so would anybody know if this option would give us cheaper electricity in the night.

Once again many thanks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I recall correctly Tarif Bleu (which they also confusingly call 'bleu ciel) is the electricity contract for private individuals. If you are on the simple tarif (i.e. you pay a flat rate/kwh 24/7) then you need to either set up a client account on the internet ("mon compte sur internet") and apply to change, or take yourself off to your local EDF office (with a good book to keep you occupied while you wait for an hour) and tell them you want to change to 'heures creuse/heures plein'. The monthly abonnement for this is slightly more expensive than the vanilla version.

Depending on your region, in addition to the overnight cheap hours, you may be offered a couple of hours in the afternoon, which can be useful for things like washing machines and tumble dryers. Obviously this is part of the total of - not in addition to - the overnight hours !

If you have an old-style electricity meter with a wheel wizzing round and only one counter, then EDRF will need to pay you a visit to change the meter. If you already have a meter with two dials, or a digital meter, then you are set up to go. You will still need a visit in all probability, but it would only require the top taking off the meter and its internal settings altered, rather than being completely replaced.

Your plumber/electrician will install for you with the chauffeau a 'jour/nuit disjoncteur', which is a switch either in your electricity tableu if there are 2 spare slots, or in a separate little box. This controls the power to the chauffeau, switching it on and off during the cheap hours. There is also an override switch to allow you to 'boost' the water temp, if you should require it, during the expensive hours.

p

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a very infomative thread, and also quite relevant to our situation. We have inherited 2 balons, one (small) at one end of the house directly above the kitchen sink, the other in the bathroom at the other end of the house (200l).

We plan to move the kitchen underneath the bathroom, and perhaps simply use the 200l balon only. Then some wood fires to heat downstairs, and some electric wall heaters as supplements..

Is this efficient? I have never been quite sure how much energy is used when using say 20l of hot to do the dishes from a 200l tank? We have just opened a 'Blue Ciel' standard hours account.. And have an old blue spinny meter, and use the house for 2 weeks in every 5 approx. Being ii

I don't mean to hijack the OP's thread, but this is perhaps quite relevant ..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A Ballon is like any other DHW (Domestic Hot Water) storage tank: think of it as an old UK copper storage tank and immersion heater.

The core difference is it's super-insulated (And of course, is pressurised to mains pressure).

When one has a tank, the hot water rises to the top by natural thermo-cycle convection. Modern ballons have an indicator (Usually at the bottom on a vertical installation) which shows how much of the tank is hot.

Nothing prevents one switching off the electricity once the tank is say 1/4 full only: thus the equivalent of a 50 L tank.

The main decision you must make is whether to stick to the standard EDF domestic tariff: or change to Heures Creuse/Heures Plein. This will incur a bigger Abonnement, however, you will save on cost between circa 12.00 Midnight and 08.00AM.

Additionally, there would be the cost for an electrician installing a Jour/Nuit Contacteur (An automatic Day/Night Switch).

We are presently only in residence a few weeks per year: but happy to meet the extra cost of the HC/HP, 'cos we tend to each enjoy two showers per day: and when guests are there then it's even more!

Thus the Ballon is enabled at night, all night on cheap rate: and with a 200L unit, we've yet to run out.

And in colder seasons, we do use electric rads for background heating in addition to a woodburner and a Deville Pôele de Mazout Convecteure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't say they were that well insulated gluey: I had mine in an unheated barn. The previous owner had thoughtfully draped the chauffeau in a uk-style multi-segment tank insulating jacket, topped with a lime green eiderdown (nice!). Whilst this looked like nothing on earth, it obviously had a good effect because if you slipped your hand between the insulation and touched the tank it was perceptably warm. Ergo nud it would have been (and indeed was) losing quite a bit of heat. Still and all, compared to a copper UK tank draped with a 20 year-old segmented jacket, so flattened and collapsed that you can see copper between the gaps, there's no contest.

However, it's still the cheapest way to get DHW (free logs excepted, of course).

 

Now shall we discuss churning in the tank ???

 

p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well; my Ballon retains significant heat (And thus hot water) for a considerable time after it was last charged.

And during the day as DHW usage has continued since the HC switched off, I've checked the gauge: despite being half full or less, the water coming out of the taps is still scalding!

My DHW tank in UK has that lovely puke green expanded foam moulded all over it (I'm still using a system boiler and gravity feeds: seems to work OK) [:)]; and that loses heat faster than Gordon Brown seemed to lose the Treasury's dosh!

[:D]

Churning: OK, however, once the water has settled back again, natural thermo-cycle will gravitate the hot water back to the top.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So presumably if we change to the HC/HP payment plan all our electricity would be more expensive during the day, than if we to remain on our current Bleu ciel. So any use of the washing machine and tumble dryer would be more expensive, but heating the DHW in the night would be cheaper. As we only have a 'one wheel' meter I think we will leave things as they are at the moment, as see how the bill looks with the extra usage before we make our decision.

Also now I see people are quoting 200L tanks, I asked our plumber to fit a 150L tank, as there is only 2 of us, although usually both of us have 2 showers each a day. Any thoughts if a 150L tank will supply enough hot water for our usage?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="Grecian"]So presumably if we change to the HC/HP payment plan all our electricity would be more expensive during the day, than if we to remain on our current Bleu ciel. So any use of the washing machine and tumble dryer would be more expensive, but heating the DHW in the night would be cheaper. [/quote]

No the cost of electricity used during the day remains the same; it is the 8 hours overnight which are at a cheaper rate. But the monthly standing charge does rise using HC; which is where the idea of the spreadsheet comes in to calculate whether HC/HP would be beneficial to you.

We - my OH and I - live in our electrically heated home all-year-round, with a ballon to heat the hot water. The house was built in 1995 so it is not badly insulated, but not brilliant either. Having done the calculations myself we are on the edge; but, IMHO, we win in that we have cheap elec from 14h15 till 17h05 each and every afternoon. Which is extremely useful in winter for heating, cooking, tumble-drying etc etc. And in the summer the hot water is piping hot for when we, and all our guests/relatives return from the beach and are in need of showers - up to 6 of us from a 200L ballon.

If you have ever have any visitors then 200L seems to be the normal ballon size to choose. Also bigger or smaller seem to cost more.

Sue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No the cost of electricity used during the day remains the same

That's no longer true for EdF where there is is a very slight increase in the cost of "daytime" units if you switch to the two rate system.

The change was introduced with the last price increase in 2009 when the discount  on "night" units was also reduced, along with some alterations to the standing charges.

You can play around with various scenarios of day, day/night rates using this comparison website, which also shows how the competitors prices stack up.

http://www.kelwatt.fr/

Even if you aren't temtped to change, it saves building a spreadsheet!

PS   DirectEnergie have the same standing charges as EdF  but their units are 10% cheaper than the regular EdF price.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

[quote user="BJSLIV"]

PS   DirectEnergie have the same standing charges as EdF  but their units are 10% cheaper than the regular EdF price.

 

[/quote]

Worth remembering that EDF's existing supply contracts to consumers are regulated by government on price: whereas third party supplier's are not.

Switching from EDF to another may seem attractive: many have discovered, down the line that the cost rockets.

If one switches from EDF to a Third Party Supplier: and then switches back, I understand the new EDF contract is then outside that aspect of government control.

For that very reason we've stuck with EDF.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wise words..

We looked at it carefully and have just opted for taking EDF from the day we moved in to our new (old) house. I believe the previous owners were EDF, so I'm hoping that we will be considered 'existing' customers??

We also considered 'Planete Oui' for their 'green' credentials, but after 3 calls to customer services to get the low down on having the old blue meter changed, they had no clue, and simply referred us to ERDF. I had this in the previous place and ended up having all the hassle of devis for this. EDF on the other hand, had a quick answer and immediately said they could do a meter change in 7-10 days for around €50..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...