Chauffage et Climatisation Inverter

[runningdog]

Hi - Does anyone have experience of this relatively 'new' environmentally efficent heating system that appears to be extremely cost efficient?  It's a bit difficult to explain but similar to a refrigetation system working in reverse and, theoretically can cut heating costs by around 75%.  The one that we are considering having installed is by Hyasu, dstributed by Eurofred Groupe SAS in partnership with EDF.  There are generous government subsidies.  This is very sketchy information but anyone with experience will know what I mean.

[Anton Redman]

We have a Bricodepot DC Inverter airconditioner installed in the upstairs corridor. In summer it chills the three upstairs bedrooms when run for a couple of hours in the evening. In winter it performs well whehn heating down an outside temperatureof below zero. We have a non DC Inveretor ( purchased fromVialle Menuserie)  in the kitchen dining room which struggles if the outside temperature is below about 3 degrees but heats fine the rest of the time.  The extra cost of CD Inverters is I believe money well spent.

I could not get much detail form the Eurofred site but stongly suspect they will be Hitachi or Hyundai units.  Details on the work involved in instalation in the following thread

http://www.completefrance.com/cs/forums/722505/ShowPost.aspx

The BricoDepot unit was Euros 645 for 3.5 Kilowatt of cooling. The Vialle was about Euros 240. Bith were supplied fully charged. Leroy Merlin also sell the units but you then have to have them charged.  Broadly for each Kilwatt of energy you but in you get between 3 and 4 kilowatts of heat into the room

 

[runningdog]

Many thanks for the response Anton.  We are thinking of having a complete installation which will include getting rid of our oil fired heatring system altogether including the radiators.  Our system is at least 30 years old, very inefficient and I do not feel cost effective.  We are going to Pornic tomorrow to view a complete installation before finally committing ourselves.  Many thanks.

[Anton Redman]

Interested to know how much you are quoted and for how many inside units. Given you are so close to the Atlantic  I would not expect it to be too cold in the winter. Also make sure that you have enough electrical power to deal with maximum consumption and the higher loading as the units start up. Ideally ask if they have a customer who went through the winter of 2006 with just AC for heating and can you talk to them.

[runningdog]

Ho[pefully we are going to talk to one tomorrow in Pornic.  This is not quite the same thing that you have as it is all in the loft with vents into six of our rooms each individually temperature contolled.  This also includes a hot water cylinder working off on'off-peak'.  As yet we do not have a written quote but it is expected as slightly over €10,000 which sound quite a lot but the government pay €5,000 of that and I am thinking that we can pay for it out of our savings on oil.

Our house has a sous-sol in which the boiler is fitted including copious pipework all of which is not conducive to thermal efficiency.  As for winters not being too cold here, I'm not convinced of that.  We came from Bournemouth and it is definitely colder than there where some years we don't get a single frost.  Having a heart condition with thinned blood I do not 'do' cold.  Our decision is partly based on a projected need for a new boiler in the not too far distant future.

[Will]

What you describe sounds like a 'heat pump' system, which takes heat from the ground (ground source, or geothermal) or atmosphere (air source, or aerothermal). Even during cold weather there is supposed to be enough heat to heat water in a heat exchanger which, as you correctly say, works on the same principle as a refrigerator, and is usually supplemented by an electric water heater.

It's well-established technology (or at least the ground source version is) and is very energy efficient. It is expensive to install but very cheap to run. I haven't heard of a system with individually controlled vents - presumably a warm air system. They usually use wet underfloor heating, which is said to suit these systems better because the water temperature is lower than a boiler/radiator installation. Radiators can be used, but they have to be rather larger than with a boiler system because of the lower water temperatures. They work best as background heat to supplement a woodburning stove or similar.

I would look carefully at the 'government pays half' offer. This is most likely in the form of a tax refund, and although low taxpayers (even zero taxpayers) can benefit from these schemes, I would be a bit sceptical about getting the whole 5000€ unless you pay a lot of income tax in France.

 

[suein56]

[quote user="Will"]

I would look carefully at the 'government pays half' offer. This is most likely in the form of a tax refund, and although low taxpayers (even zero taxpayers) can benefit from these schemes, I would be a bit sceptical about getting the whole 5000€ unless you pay a lot of income tax in France. [/quote]

There is definitely an annual ceiling for these tax saving schemes; but I cannot remember what it is ... can anyone else?

I do know a close friend of ours was encouraged to replace her enormous, old, draughty and inefficient single-glazed windows with very attractive UPVC replacement windows - and superb they are too - in 2 stages ie over 2 tax years to benefit from the maximum tax refund from the change.

Sue

[BJSLIV]

The maximum amount of expenditure for which you can claim a rebate is 8000 euros for a singleton, 16000 euros for a couple.

No refund is available on air to air systems, though it is available on air to water systems.

Its worth remembering that the refund only applies to the equipment , not the installation charge.

If the refund is greater than your tax liability you get a refund by cheque.

[Poolguy]

I can tell you for sure that you will not get 'anything back' from the government to install reneweable energy.

What you will get is a 50% rebate on your tax for the following year on the material cost ONLY of the renewable energy equipment ONLY, so long as the premesis is not used for commercial purposes.

In the case of a Solar system (which I am more familiar) that mean ONLY the panels - or equipment above the roof and not the cylinder, controller pipework, installation and other stuff. I know for a fact that some plumbers are writing down all of their cost into the cost of the 'energy saver' to maximise this item and therefore cheat the system out of the maximum rebate. Clients who go for this will come unstuck very badly I suspect, as the TaxDepartment have sworn to us that ' they are not fools - and smarter or at least equal to the average plumber' and so those clients who are claiming will get a shock when their rebate appears to be a fraction of what was expected. So don't expect it for half price  because you will be dissappointed.

I would in the same breath encourage you to look at solar evacuated tube panels to assist with this conversion as you will find them at least as powerful as a heat pump you describe and of course, they work for FREE - unlike a heat pump.

Andrew

[runningdog]

Thank you all for your input.  It certainly clouds the water.  How is it possible to ascertain what level of 'help' is available from whatever source?  I have been assured that the €5,000 is paid by cheque and NOT related to tax paid.  What can you be sure of in France???

On another tack.  We have recently had the single glazing on the half of house not already double glazed replaced with douible glazed units.  Is it possible to get something back from this as was inferred in one response???

[BJSLIV]

I agree with Poolguy that all you get back is 50% of the cost of  the  "boiler" part, not the pipework etc. Your mentioning vents suggests that you are thinking of an air / air system in  which case I fear you will, at best,  get part of the cost of the equipment which is dedicated to hot water production.

You should really be looking at replacing your existing boiler with an environmentally friendly heat source such as geothermal or air to water in which case you would receive 50% of the cost of the new heat converter.

[Anton Redman]

" You should really be looking at replacing your existing boiler with an environmentally friendly heat source such as geothermal or air to water in which case you would receive 50% of the cost of the new heat converter."

What is the issue with reversable AC ?

[runningdog]

We have investigated geo-thermal and found it to be +/- twice as expensive to install and incompatible with the trees in the garden.  I have never thought that the boiler / radiator scenario for heating particularly efficient - so much heat goes straight up the chimney from the boiler and radiators do not lend themselves to even heat distribution.  In addition we have 60 metres of distribution pipes under the floor [in the sous-sol] which, although lagged, are still warm and heating an area we do not want heated. Just my opinion.

Reasons that I am keen on the air to air:

1. 1 kw in - +/- 4 kw out.
2. Even heat distribution in rooms. 1 degree difference between floor and ceiling.
3. Radiators take up valuable wall space.
4. Were I able to dispose of the bouiler and fuel tank in the sous-sol I could then turn this room into a fully functional utility room cum summer kitchen - so making the house more suited to our taste.

We have just visited a house in Pornic who converted from gas heating [tank in garden - the most expensive] who were paying 200€ per month for heating under that system.  Since last October their total electric bill to end February has been 340€.  Quite a saving considering that they would have paid 1,000€ for heating plus normal household electric charges.  Our fuel heating has not quite cost that much but then our house has nowhere near as comfortable a feeling as the house we just visited.  We were impressed.

[Dave]

Does anyone know how much output is achieved from a DC unit when the outside temperature is down below zero? Are the units noisy and do you need one for each room or are there larger units available that cover several rooms?

Dave

[runningdog]

Hi Dave

I'm not sure what a DC unit is but if it is what we were looking at this morning it is virtually silent and will service at least a house of 100 sq metres.  The people who owned the house with the system we saw today said that the warmth in the house did not drop when the temperature outside was below freezing.

[BJSLIV]

Did you discover whether the whole house sytem qualified for any tax rebate?

However in the final analysis ,if it's the system that suits you best, don't get side-tracked by the tax rebate. If it makes economic sense without a rebate go for it.

My suspicion has always been that the geothermal and air to water "boilers" need the subsidy to stand any chance in the cost comparisons.

 

[Anton Redman]

Inside ours are practically silent - Much less than a fan heater of similar power when used for heating. Outside they are slightly nosier, but if you are outside you probably do do need the house cooling or heating that much. Split units with two inside units and one outside are available.

If you want much heat below 3 degrees centigrade you need to have an inverter type installed 

 

[runningdog]

All that I can say is that our 'quotation' assured us that we will only pay 5,300€ and that the remainder is paid through various sources.  I must stress that I was extremely impressed and this particular system seems to fit our requirements better than any other.

Thanks to you all for your input.

[Gyn_Paul]

Running dog,

As someone who is extremely keen to see the knowedge/experience base of the forum grow, I, for one, would be grateful if you'd keep us informed as you get the system installed, and your overall feelings about it when it's been up and running for a while.

p

PS. we lived not far from Pornic for 2 years (St Etienne de Mer Morte, the other side of Machecoul) and - yes - it does occasionally get cold for a day or two with a bit of frost first thing, but the upside is far more sunny mornings even in the supposed dead of winter, to gladden the heart and lift the spirits than you'd find even on the south coast of the UK.

[runningdog]

Hi - As I have said previosly the system impresses me greatly and we are considering it very seriously.  Today we received the official quotqtion and it is rather more expensive by 1,700 Euros.  With us the system has to pay for itself through the savings on fuel throughout the year and it is possible that this extra may tip the scales.  I will keep you informed.

[Caussenarde]

Runningdawg,

Just benn reading the loi on the rebates you are thinking about and I thought of your questions:

First of all you can be sure of everything in France: you just have to look at www.impots.gouv.fr to find all.

Secondo: you can get 50% of the cost of the PAC equipment you were/are considering/are installing, but there are caveats as below, in a nutshell it must heat all your living rooms, must meet certain perf. criteria, must be capable of heating the whole house, and above all, you or the installer must arrange for an inspection by independent Govmnt. accredited company after installation and before you make the claim.

coefficient de performance (COP) supérieur ou égal à

3 pour une température extérieure de + 7 °C selon la

norme d’essai 14511-2 et remplissant les critères

suivants :

- l’appareil est centralisé sur une unité extérieure ;

- son fonctionnement est garanti par le fabricant

jusqu’à une température de - 15 °C ;

- chacune des pièces de vie est équipée d'une part,

d'une unité terminale (multisplit) ou d'un diffuseur

(gainable), d'autre part, d'un organe de régulation ;

- la pompe à chaleur air/air avec ses compléments

intégrés éventuels assure le chauffage de l'habitation

dans son ensemble (les pièces de vies et leurs

circulations) ;

- sa puissance calorifique thermodynamique restituée

est au moins égale à 5 kW à une température

extérieure de + 7 °C ;

- l’installation finale a été contrôlée. par un organisme

d’inspection accrédité

(1) L’organisme d’inspection doit être accrédité selon la norme NF EN ISO/CEI 17020

This is a bit late but maybe still of help. Bon courage !

[runningdog]

Hi - Sorry to be so late in response but we have had considerable computer / internet problems of late.

The rebate is written into the contract and the contract is dependent upon it.  The system and finance is underwritten by EDF, it does heat the whole house and the installers have already made an appointment for inspection even though the installation does not take place until September.

I am confidant that I have taken as many precations as possible, have spoken to meny people of long standing in France and done as much research as possible. I now feel that were I now to lose confidence or take a pessimistic attitude that I would regret it later.

Many thanks for your interest.

[pio]

Well... I don't really have 'experience' concerning this heating system, but they could maybe help you on this website : http://www.clim-pas-cher.com/

[crossy67]

How external do the external units have to be?  We are moving into a listed village and I doubt I would be allowed to have several ac units bolted to the wall.  We do have loft spaces we could locate units in though. Any one with ideas how this could work, maybe with ducting?

[Nearly Retired (I am now)]

I wonder, if after 2 1/2 years, RunningDog could update us on his system.