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Builders insurance for extension and selling, necessary or not?


Mick
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We have had an extension built and are having difficulty getting a copy of our builders insurance. If we decide to sell do we have to supply a copy of his insurance to the new owners and if we don't have one what would we have to do?

This is important so if anyone can supply links to pertienent webpages that would be good.
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I had some repairs done, and the name of the builder, but not their insurer was written into the 'acte'.

The new owner can claim against the builder and their insurance if things go wrong, so it is important to check it.

If they go bust the insurer is still liable, but if you can't find them YOU become liable, so make sure you get the details..

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Before you start to read this post can I say that these are general comments and NOT aimed at Mick, the original poster.

I am sure that many people have seen these programs on English TV about bad builders and what they get up to (or rather don't in some cases). The thing is just because you have crossed the channel you should not leave your common sense back in the UK. So keeping that in mind here are my five most important and 'must do' tips.

  1. Always get three quotes (Devis) for any work you get carried out. Always asked for references and if possible either phone or visit them.
  2. Always make sure that you agree before any work is carried out that they give you a photocopy of their insurance details.
  3. Always check his/her SIRET number. You can do this on any of the following websites Lesechos - Infogreffe (in English and French) - Societe - Manageo
  4. Always tell them that you will only pay the amount on the Devis and that they must give you a separate Devis for any 'extras' then tell them if they don't you wont pay for any. Make sure the Devis is signed by them and you. This is a legal document, your agreement to pay for the work and materials (unless your supplying the materials yourself). It protects honest builders from you and it protects you from 'dodgy' builders in law if necessary should something happen.
  5. Keep the copies of the Devis and their insurance details in a safe place for future reference.

I am sure others may wish to add to this list but if you stick rigidly to the above you shouldn't go wrong.

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To answer Micks question, yes you will need the insurance details just as Norman said. The best bet, seeing as he is a bit reluctant to supply it, is to 'camp' at his house or business until he photocopies it. Personally I would then check with the insurer that it's OK. Your just going to have to be a bit forcefull and if nessary mention that perhaps you ought to visit the Chambre de Metiers to find out if he is genuine..
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Yes, Quillan is dead right. we did all the things he suggests and two builders were out of the running straight away because they were not working legally in France and one was giving a false siret number.

Maybe some of the forums that take classified for builders should check the siret numbers too.

Anyway we considered four builders in all and over a period of 5 months so nothing was rushed. Not sure why the builder we used will not give us a copy of his insurance. Perhaps he cancelled it or perhaps it was revoked by the insurance company. Who knows!.

Hopefully he'll come through in the end as he has done a good job and we would use him again.....so long as we get a copy of his insurance for the current job.
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[quote user="Mick"]What makes you think I didn't? Do you have an answer to the OP or are you the sort of poster that likes to appear superior to others?.[/quote] So, if you got his details, why the **** are you asking the question? Why do you feel it necessary to insult me because you are having a sulk?
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If you decide to sellup, then the notaire handling your sale will contact the artisan direct for a copy of the insurance policy etc. This is the normal route because all invoices for work carried out will be given to the notaire within the ten year period so that the new owners have the details. Nick, like us has been trading here for many years and we tend to reply as is our long standing experiences, nothing else and most people who have to ask a question, do so because they have no idea in the first place anyway of how things should be done!
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[quote user="Nick Trollope"][quote user="Mick"]What makes you think I didn't? Do you have an answer to the OP or are you the sort of poster that likes to appear superior to others?.[/quote] So, if you got his details, why the **** are you asking the question? Why do you feel it necessary to insult me because you are having a sulk?[/quote] Ah, so it is OK for you to make assumptions about people but don't like to take what you give. Very typical of those that like to appear superior. And you have NOT read the OP properly either but that figures seeing as you make assumptions.
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[quote]If you decide to sellup, then the notaire handling your sale will contact the artisan direct for a copy of the insurance policy etc.[/quote] But what if the builder has gone bust, died, moved to another country etc. and is not contactable?.
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Was the work done against a devis (can't remember if you said it was) and was the work paid for against a facture - ideally via a cheque, not cash! Did you get the facture receipted? Have you still got all three?

What precisely is the difficulty with obtaining insurance details? Have you asked face-to-face? Or just via emails and / or answerphone messages.

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If the final invoice was never settled in full by a client, the artisan has no liability or need to provide any insurance details because the client has renaiiged on his side of the contract. Our insurers would not cover us in an ongoing problem (trying to get money out of a pair of scamming clients) because we never received payment infull and therefore the insurance deçennel and civile is nul and void and if any disagrees, you ask any insurance company. If the builder has gone bust or died, then unfortunately not a lot you can do unless your notaire canfind out for you, as you should have asked for a copy before he started the works.Public works always demanded our policy up front with the liasse and the devis before the marché public was awarded.
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Val2 your two posts seem to contradict each other.

Firstly you wrote.."If you decide to sellup, then the notaire handling your sale will contact the artisan direct for a copy of the insurance policy etc. This is the normal route because all invoices for work carried out will be given to the notaire"

Then you wrote..." you should have asked for a copy before he started the works"

So which is it?. 'The Notaire will get it as is this is the normal route' or 'you should have asked for a copy before he started the works'

BTW the thread is not about whether anyone has renaiged on the work or payment. It is simply about selling a house without a copy of a builders insurance. Let's try to stay on topic if that is OK.

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[quote user="Mick"]

BTW the thread is not about whether anyone has renaiged on the work or

payment. It is simply about selling a house without a copy of a builders

insurance. Let's try to stay on topic if that is OK.[/quote]

You have come here to ask for advice; your snippy responses are not going to encourage people to spend their time answering your question far less researching and posting links to "pertienent webpages".

The questions I asked were relevant and related to what your next steps might be. But

if you are only prepared to reveal a specific amount of information then

that limits the advice one can provide...

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The question was simple. There is no need for people to complicate matters by introducing aspects that are irrelevant as you did.

What is it in the words ' If we decide to sell do we have to supply a copy of his insurance to the new owners and if we don't have one what would we have to do?' that you do not understand?
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[quote user="Mick"]Val2 your two posts seem to contradict each other. Firstly you wrote.."If you decide to sellup, then the notaire handling your sale will contact the artisan direct for a copy of the insurance policy etc. This is the normal route because all invoices for work carried out will be given to the notaire" Then you wrote..." you should have asked for a copy before he started the works" So which is it?. 'The Notaire will get it as is this is the normal route' or 'you should have asked for a copy before he started the works' BTW the thread is not about whether anyone has renaiged on the work or payment. It is simply about selling a house without a copy of a builders insurance. Let's try to stay on topic if that is OK.[/quote]

What he is saying is that you should have asked for a copy before the work started and not allowed the work to start before you had a copy. That way it would not be a problem when you come to sell.

If the builder is still in existence, you have a SIRET number on the 'Devis' and the final 'Facture' (hope you have both), the Notaire, in the absences of the insurance details ask the builder to supply them.

If the builder has gone bust, moved and is untraceable etc, etc, all the Notaire can do is write to the last known address or again if the builder has kept his SIRET number find him at his new address.

If the Notaire can't get hold of the insurance details and the work was carried out within the last ten years prior to the house being sold then your a bit stuffed. I guess all you can do is get a 'surveyors' report done at your expense but how acceptable that is I do not know, your best asking the Notaire how to proceed.

I think our two builders, who are pretty straight are the 'do it by the book', sort of builders (I guess you have to be when you work in a foreign country, think about the Poles in the UK) they can't imagine a proper builder not starting work without handing copies of these documents over or that you didn't ask for them in the first place. Thats why they wrote what they wrote but if only life was as simple as that when you first come to France and the French gave you a handbook on how everything worked in France.

Well I never knew about the insurance thing when I first came to France and I had work done. I did however get a Devis and I did check the builders references. I found out about the insurance via this forum, after the work was done of course. Unlike you my builder lives round the corner so I went round and banged on the door and asked for a copy. When you live in another country hindsight is a marvelous thing. If you have contact details for the builder you can reverse the old 'builders trick' and start phoning him at 06:00 and 23:00 every day to remind him to post the copy on and ask him if he did post it that day. A week of doing that should get you what you want and it's quite legitimate.

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[quote user="Mick"]The question was simple. There is no need for people to complicate matters by introducing aspects that are irrelevant as you did. [/quote]

When someone has got themselves into a bind, their judgement on what is and what is not relevant is immediately suspect. But the unwillingness to be more precise does tell its own story. Very clearly.

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[quote user="Catalpa"][quote user="Mick"]The question was simple. There is no need for people to complicate matters by introducing aspects that are irrelevant as you did. [/quote]
When someone has got themselves into a bind, their judgement on what is and what is not relevant is immediately suspect. But the unwillingness to be more precise does tell its own story. Very clearly.
[/quote] You may assume whatever you like. Whatever your assumption it will be wrong.
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Qullian. Everything about the job has been done by the book including completion and payment. I did my homework before anyone got the job, hence my earlier post about those that never got the job.

The only thing missing is a copy of the insurance and I was told that would come with the final facture. (This makes sense since some people find it difficult to pay the final facture for some reason and the builders as well as clients need some protection!!!!.) Hence my OP.

Unfortunately few people seem able to answer a simple question without fielding their own slant on other people or making life complicated by introducing other aspects which, if they were relevant, would have been mentioned in the OP.

In fact there was no need for me to even write the first line in the OP and now I wish I had not. Why I was asking the question is neither here nor there. The question stands on it's own right,

However every forum has it's regular know alls and put downers and this one is no different.
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It may seem an obvious question, and I know I run the risk of causing offence by asking it, but was the job all signed off and final payment handed over? I ask because, and you will probably know this from the amount of homework you did, that the insurance does not come into force until the job is finished and paid for.

But as others have said, the notaire, whose job it is to make sure that all legal aspects of the sale are in order, should sort out the paperwork. It's what he/she is being paid for, after all.

This page should help. It, and the associated forum posts linked from it, would seem to suggest that the absence of insurance won't legally prevent you from selling, but you may suffer a reduction in value as a result.

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