Updating shed

[Sydney and Huggy]

We currently have a large lean to tagged on to the end of the barn, closed on three sides  and it was probably used as a cart/tractor shed, the clapieres were in there and other bits and pieces. Dirt floor, corrugated iron walls and roof and been there a long time.  We are now thinking about removing it, laying a concrete floor, a bit smaller than the current structure, and tying a slated, pitched roof on to the end of the barn and open on the other three sides.

The big question is, can we just 'replace' the current structure without looking for consent? [8-)]

[Sydney and Huggy]

Ummm, slightly surprised that, with all the wealth of knowledge and experience amassed in here, particularly by the regular contributors, that there's not even been a hint of opinion one way or another. [:(]

[Quillan]

Perhaps nobody knows?

[pachapapa]

Some dimensions would be useful; the shed may not be a permanent structure, permanence is a subjective factor bit like fixtures and fittings.

If it appears on your cadastral plan it will probably be regarded as a permanent structure. The previous cut off between a Permis de construire and a declaration préalable des travaux used to be 20 metres squared; as of the 1st january 2012 this changed to 40 square metres. One would presume that your proposed building is less than 40 M2.

The change was introduced by the midget poisonous dwarf in order to promote the building industry; autour de chez-moi there are frogs all over the place feverishly building 10M2 sheds on each corner of their parcelles. Some look definitely delusional.

[Gardener]

Might it fit into this category?

http://www.larmor-plage.com/Declaration-de-travaux.5155.0.html

http://www.fos-sur-mer.fr/IMG/pdf/fos-sur-mer-7-148.pdf

You don't need permission but you willl have to submit a dossier to get a stamped certificate to say you don't need permission! I needed it for new windows and it was no problem.

[Sydney and Huggy]

[quote user="pachapapa"]

Some dimensions would be useful; the shed may not be a permanent structure, permanence is a subjective factor bit like fixtures and fittings.

If it appears on your cadastral plan it will probably be regarded as a permanent structure. The previous cut off between a Permis de construire and a declaration préalable des travaux used to be 20 metres squared; as of the 1st january 2012 this changed to 40 square metres. One would presume that your proposed building is less than 40 M2.

[/quote]

Pachapapa  the base is intended be around 7m x 4m (the 7m being the width of the gable end of the barn) and around half of the ground area of the present 'building'.  Going out next week and I'll go through the cadastral - all the ground plans etc are in the house.  As you say 'permanent' is quite subjective, my brother spoke to the builder who suggested that a concrete base is classed as permanent whereas a wooden deck would not be nor a compacted sand and stone base unless it was slabbed or tiled over. .

Gardener, thank you for your links, I'm going to sit and go through them, probably resorting to Google translate here and there!

Ahhh, I have every faith in the forum,[:D] always seems someone somewhere has tackled a problem/challenge and yet again are prepared to share opinions/thoughts and point folk in the right direction.  Thanks again everyone.

[Quillan]

[quote user="Sydney and Huggy"].....my brother spoke to the builder who suggested that a concrete base is classed as permanent whereas a wooden deck would not be nor a compacted sand and stone base unless it was slabbed or tiled over. .

[/quote]

I am of the opinion that the builder is right. We wanted to extend our terrace and were told we needed permission to concrete and lay slabs where as if we decked it there would not be a problem which is what we did. I was informed that the reason is that it's bolts and screwed and therefore could be dismantled and as such was classed as a temporary structure. The mayor can look out his window on to our property (from a distance) and it's been up for several years now with no complaint.

[pachapapa]

Whilst the changes to the Urban code were effective from the 1st january 2012, the new forms have only been available from the 1st march 2012, so fairly recently.

In the case of an extension to the floor area of a property then a construction of up to 40 m2 is covered by a declaration préalable des travaux, the fact that your construction will be stuck to the existing wall of the barn gable means it is an extension.

Consider a different case if the construction is an independent building then if it were over 20m2  it would fall under a permis de construire.

Thus it is only for the extension that the rules are easier.

If the existing lean to is included in the area of the property then the new construction would not increase the total area.

If however it is not included then the area will increase, be careful that this increase does not push the total area over 170 m2 because if it does it will trigger the need for an architect to approve the construction and involve a Permis de Construire.

The service -public website was updated on the 6th march 2012.

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/F17578.xhtml

[BIG MAC]

I have adjoining hangars (ie adjoining the house) with cobbled floors from a previous life as stables or byres. Cobbles are pretty permanent and I am intending to put mesh on concrete plugs then simply 'float' slabs in to take the slope out of the floors and make sweeping up easier (particularly sawdust) No intention of these areas being anything other than what they are already...didn't think that would warrant a permis? Go and have a word with the Maire I guess..

[pachapapa]

Cobbles are expensive have you considered lifting them and selling them on.

Perhaps if you visit the maire he/she might know someone interested.

Assuming there will be no change of use no permit is required.

I presume a byre is for those things like horses that have horns.

I am doing a barn at the moment put spanish tiles on the floor makes sweeping sawdust real easy.

[pachapapa]

Hi S&H  !

Just a quick word on the new regulations there has for me been an important change with regard to a new construction not requiring, in principle, any planning permission at all, not even a Declaration Préalable. This used to be an area of not more than 2 metres squared, not a lot, well this has now been increased to 5 metres squared which is quite a lot; for example a garden shed or a small pergola or whatever. The height is still kept at 12 metres maximum height before planning triggers.

The other change is with respect to terraces, now a terrace "plain pied" does not require any planning, of course within the area triggers, that is to say a 12 metre squared free standing terrace or a whopping 40 metre squared terrace if it extends out from the house.

The regulation was changed in 2007 stopping the previous practice of allowing a terrace up to 60 centimetres above ground level without planning. The expression "plain pied" means in french on the same level; one often sees houses advertised as being "plain pied" that is to say a bungalow.

All in the decree link below:

http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexteArticle.do;jsessionid=7E057FA33676A18007736EA9F2717494.tpdjo07v_3?idArticle=JORFARTI000025413510&cidTexte=JORFTEXT000025413495&dateTexte=29990101&categorieLien=id

[Sydney and Huggy]

Take the point about it being fixed to the gable end particularly since it has been suggested that where the high end of the sloping roof may be affixed to timbers bolted through the wall.

Need to sit down on Thursday with the cadastral and house plans to do some sums and probably best to see if we can book an appointment with the Mairie.  Little point in going ahead and finding out later that things have not been done right.

Off early in the morning, no phone, internet or emails for a whole 2 weeks (and the weather looks reasonable for the first few days[:)]) how good can life get? So in the meantime thanks for all your pointers, thoughts and suggestions.

[pachapapa]

I wouldn't worry much about whether it is permanent or not because whether it is or not will only affect the completion of the Declaration Préalable; if it is considered as permanent then the demolition and new construction will ALL be on the same form. It will not in practice affect the practical work on the property.

The new form has an annexe which goes to the tax authority; I presume that it would trigger them sending you an H1 if the construction is deemed to increase the nominal rental value of the complete property.

OT Sarko was on the box last night and said that if he gets a second term then he will allow everybody to increase the size of their property by 30 % and not have to pay tax. So your modest project will hardly raise an eyebrow.

Bon Voyage....the weather is good, good, good....sunshine and june temperatures for thursday.