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ELECTRICS-NEW INSTALLATION


scotslassie
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I've been away a while....wondering if anyone can help someone not electrically minded?  We have now got all our new openings for windows and doors etc done and dusted now so our plan for our next short visit in 2 weeks is to frame up walls upstairs in barn and hopefully do the insulation and plasterboard if time.  Its only 3.5 x 10m and totally open plan upstairs (bedrooms downstairs due to ground level).  Do we pick a spot for fuse board on the front inside wall nearest main street, we only need say 6 double sockets in living area end and 6 in kitchen plus allowing for 5 overhead lights over whole upstairs -  we would like to run the cables ourselves.  Gaine is mentioned a lot but I am confused as to whether is is needed behind plasterboard or overhead running along beams or just if you are chasing into plaster/stonework.  We dont intend actually doing the wiring but it would be handy to run some cables upstairs (making one floor semi habitable once we have power and water) so we can plasterboard most of it.  I know we will also need a water heater in the kitchen and possibly an electric wall heater somewhere upstairs tho we intend to have a log burner and can always plug in an oil filled radiator if need be.  What do we need to do - ie what cable and what height cut outs for sockets and light switches?  I know its spur as opposed to ring but thats about it.  Its only 2 bed when finished and do we have to have lots of phone sockets or can we just put one at each end of space? Any help appreciated and sorry for waffling![:D]

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Having read your post and with the greatest of respect I really think you should leave all the electrics alone and get a proffesional electrician in to do the 'first fix' prior to plaster boarding and then return for the 'second fix' later. He can the certify the work providing  proper certificate for your insurance should you need it at a later date. He will also probably raise issues that you may not even have thought about. By the sound of things it won't be costing you that much so the money you will save will be very small.
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Quillan, Thanks for your concern regarding my safety but we're not in a position to get someone in at the drop of a hat and are on the tiniest budget known to mankind.  We can only spend 2 weeks every year at the barn and its taking forever.  I am at a loose end while my partner is doing the builder/joinery bit and all I need to know is a few heights, type of cable and how many sockets on a spur maximum etc.  Its the basic first fix and it will save us time and money.  My partner has been in the building trade for 25 years and his father and brother are both English electricians (with no intentions of camping in France to do us a homer).  I need the correct info so they can draw us a sensible wiring diagram as they would if it was in the UK.  Normally we run cables if we make alterations at our house and they connect them.  I kept the request basic to get straighforward information but not  too much information overload for my tiny brain!  We will buy all cabling in France and get someone in to do connections when required and leave some parts exposed and take photos so they know we have done it correctly without joins etc.  I am very practical and my partner has enough knowledge to supervise me!  I can wood carve with power tools, solder stained glass windows and reverse a horse trailer in tiny spaces so hopefully I can manage this too!  My french neighbour is female and did her rewire in an extension but she already had electricity connected and therefore will not encounter EDF /electrician refusing to connect her to mains if she hasnt put her sockets at the correct heights etc.
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I think Quillan has given you the best advice. If you need to ask basic questions then the job is probably beyond you. You don't say whether this is for a new installation, but that would involve even more stringent standards. There are books available on the subject, well worth obtaining, and the French system is so much different to the British approach and previous experience of the UK standards don't really count for much apart from being able to strip cabling.

http://www.amazon.fr/Linstallation-%C3%A9lectrique-Thierry-Gallauziaux/dp/2212134509

 

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Your partners father and brother might be UK electricians. However, the French system is extremely different to the UK system.

I agree with both Q and Sid that the basic questions that you are asking means that the knowledge of the French system is not there.

Sid has given you the reference for the bible that you need (note it is in French which is to be expected) and Amazon France do deliver to the UK.

 Think at the moment you cannot afford not to employ genuine French (be it actually French, English etc) because install it wrongly yourself and then find it cannot be connected you will then be paying out for tradespeople to redo the work.

Paul 

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I was thinking along those lines myself. Seeing as it is technically a new installation if you get it wrong on the first fix then all the plasterboard will have to come off and it could all end up in tears not to mention the fact a lot more expensive. S*ds law of course means that it will also be decorated by the time this is discovered so all that money and hard work is down the drain. Trying to save a couple of pennies here could end up spending hundreds of Euros later on which is why, even on a very limited budget, some things are worth getting the professionals in for. You can always ask the electrician for a list of parts, get them yourself (Brico Depot for example) and just pay for him/her to fit them, you may save a few bob that way.
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[quote user="Quillan"]  ..... S*ds law of course means that it will also be decorated by the time this is discovered ....[/quote]

This is not "Sid's law" by the way ! [:D] [:D]

I found that employing a French electrician for my first couple of major works gave me lots of pointers about the way they do things. Ours is particularly helpful and answered loads of questions from me, which must have been a bit annoying for him at times. I now feel confident enough to tackle meduim sized jobs myself, but the book is indispensible for any DIYer. There is a new updated (4th) edition dated Feb 2012 with the latest regs. 33€ well spent!

 

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Well, I see that no definitive answers are forthcoming...except you must be getting commission from book sales (!) and you think that because I asked some pretty basic questions as confirmation of current cabling and heights etc that the job is beyond me/us!  Sadly with only a week to go before we set off from Scotland on a 2 day road trip I will not risk buying the book so I guess we will just have to hope that the excellent listing of 2007 info/glossary re cables and maximum 8 lights/2300 watt per spur etc is still relevant.  Maybe Brico Depot will be able to help a little too.  If you dont know the answers guys, you just have to say so rather than advise against me doing it because you make presumptions!  We're perfectly aware that if ALL the plasterboard is on then there can be no additions/alterations without a bit of hassle which is why I asked for advice initially. I work partly for a building firm and my partner has been self employed as first and second fix joiner for 25 years - in Scotland you do both not just one or other, even roofing is done differently to England.  He clearly has a good idea of what is required when working with other trades - just doesnt have knowledge of exact 2012 French specs which we realise are somewhat different ie some practises are frowned upon in UK but norm in France.  The barn is tiny by comparison to most peoples homes and will not have solar, off peak heating or anything other than lights, sockets, electric heaters, cooker and hot water heater plus a bathroom fan, towel rail, tv and phone points etc.  Absolute common sense tells us that you cant have switches/ sockets in bathrooms and things need to be earthed.  We dont intend doing half of this - I/we will simply be running cables from either upstairs to downstairs or vice versa depending on where the fuse board is situated.  All cables will be clearly marked to help the sparky connect up as nothing would annoy me more than a heap of cables appearing and going to god knows where....I wont remember where they go after two weeks so why would I expect someone else to guess..... Anyway, now I've upset you all  I had better go... but if anyone genuinely knows what they are doing and lives near St Amand Montrond, by Montlucon and thinks they can advise specifics  then feel free to email/pm me!  Half the villlage have offered their friends etc but having seen their own electrics there is no way we would take them up on it!
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Your 2007 documentation is out of date, new regs came in on the 1st Jan 2008 and include such things as installing data cables (compulsory) for phones and media unless your permit was issued before that date in which case you will have to show it (as proof) to whoever does the second fix and gives you the conformity document for the electrics.

A far better site than Brico Depot (if your looking for information from Brico's) is Leroy Merlin, I have attached a link below to the electrical installation documents for domestic installations.

http://www.leroymerlin.fr/v3/p/idees-conseils/comprendre-l1308220578#electriciteDomotique

You also need to find a copy of NF C 15-100 which is the book of regulations, you might find an online copy if you search.

The reason for the reluctance of people to tell you the information you require is because people have already done, or have had done, their installation and things change very quickly in France. One day you can do something, the next day you can't and don't assume to use your 'common sense' because the French and English versions of common sense are quite different. We have light switches and power sockets by the side of each bathroom mirror which are above the sinks. The mirrors have lights above (as well as a main room light) and the power socket is for a hair drier. These were installed in 2001, what the new regs are about this I don't know. There is no PME in France, such a system does not exists here so you need to install a earth rod. You can't use water pipes because they are plastic when under ground. Don't use English circuit breakers etc they won't have the French approval markings on them.

Ask your electrician what make of products he likes to use as some are not interchangeable. Some circuit breakers take the feed from the top, others from the bottom (as I found to my cost recently because I made an assumption when buying a replacement). Personally I prefer Legrande products and in particular their breakers as they have clips at both the top and bottom for easy removal. They are more expensive (double the price of Brico Dept's cheapest) but well worth the money.

There is no real regulation on the size of gaines but they come in 16, 20,25 and 32 sizes. Some electricians run 16 for the lights and 25 for sockets. Personally I used 25 everywhere because it leaves plenty of space to pull extra cables through at a later date.  'Data' cable runs in a separate gaine with outlets next to a power socket, more information in the link I gave you. This cable will run your phone, the old 'T' phone connectors are no longer used in new installations. The only thing that similar between the UK and France s the size of cable i.e. 2.5 fr power and 1.5 for lights. Earth wires, because there is no PME in France must be individually insulated, they don't have anything like English twin and earth here and it's illegal here anyway.

Don't take what I have written as gospel either because things change and I am not up to date, like many I did mine years ago.

Don't worry you have not upset anyone. We have just given you the best advice we can but if you don't know heights of sockets etc in France then you should really get a proper electrician in. There is no reason why you can't do a first fix but I would work with the electrician, get him to show you where to place things.

Good luck.

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[quote user="scotslassie"]  Absolute common sense tells us that you cant have switches/ sockets in bathrooms and things need to be earthed.  [/quote]

 

Actually you can have switches and sockets in a bathroom-.  There are however strict rules about whereabouts - which is why the good posters above suggested that you get the authoratitive book.

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You can have sockets in bathrooms.

Off peak electricity is handled automatically by EDF defpending on what tarrif you are on.

I suggest you use 25mm gain everywhere as it makes it easier to thread the cable through. And don't bother with cabling, let the electrician do that.

Some things that are the norm in UK are frowned upon in France

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[:@]  I'm not quite so forgiving as my fellows when a poster blasts me for giving an answer he or she doesn't want to hear. Is it just a case of waiting for the answer that suits best, and ignoring all the rest even though they're correct? Why ask in the first place? Heaven help the person who buys your property next, and has to put all of this stuff right. I've seen quite a few.

People are reluctant to state what you can and can't do because often "it depends"! And the rules change, as already pointed out. We'd finish up writing a book for you, and that's already been done. [;-)]

I think that trying to renovate a house when you're only here for 2 weeks a year (!) is pretty nigh impossible. A far better solution would be to get someone in to do the work for you, someone who knows what he's doing, and will do the work in half the time. Of all of the parts of the house the electrical system has the potential to do the greatest damage; it can be lethal and most of the "normes" are designed for your safety. Ignore at your peril.

Plug sockets in bathrooms? Yes. But read the "normes" because there are specific conditions.

"Spurs"? Well here we go with the UK terminology again. Perhaps wired up in flat twin and earth? [:-))]

BricoDepot for advice?  I think not.  [+o(]

I endorse the view that LeroyMerlin can be very helpful and many of the staff speak English.  [B]

[geek]   Honestly, the book that has been recommended is the DIYer's bible for electrical installations and it has ALL of your answers. You could not spend a better 33€, the price of a couple of electrical sockets!! No commission for us, sadly.

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I agree with much you have said Sid but the bottom line, in the OP's defence, here is very small property and even smaller budget, in fact, reading her second post, shoe string budget I am afraid. When your on such a low budget one has to prioritise where the money is spent. Personally I think that money spent on getting a professional electrician in is well spent. Carpentry, dry lining etc I would attempt to do my self if I had the skills (I even put a wall up and a door in, a big thing for me). I do some plumbing but I wouldn't run water pipes and drainage under a concrete floor for instance, to much of a risk for me. Where it's in the open and I can spot the leaks, should I be unlucky enough to get any, I will do myself. Mind you I did get a French plumber in to do the first bits and watched him like a hawk to learn because yes, again, it's different over here. To each his (or her own) I guess.
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I agree with all of the above:

 

This may help if you are still wanting to blunder on and DIY it. it gives you a very brief overview of things.

http://www.legrand.fr/professionnels/accueil-locaux-d-habitation_1160.html

The diagram on the page below will show you how your appliances should be linked back to the main board.

http://www.legrand.fr/professionnels/nf-c-15-100-les-circuits-et-leur-protection_1069.html

 

And Brico depot - you can pay a lot of money for S41TE , and the people who work there are not paid to offer advice, they stack shelves.

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I see you are not intent on doing the final wiring and will eventually have an electrician to complete the installation.
I'm not sure if you already have electricity or need a meter installed, either way any connection will either require an electrician to take responsibility for that connection or for an independant conseil inspection, so it's probably best to arrange to meet an electrician at the property this trip; ask for a devi and his advice on what work he would be happy for you to undertake.
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A question for the OP:

If you are only at the property for 2 weeks of the year, what do you do for the other 50? Maybe you should have asked these questions some time ago, when you had time to collate information. This way you are putting yourselves under so much pressure, and surely that isn't the fundamental goal of this little hideaway for you in france.

Having spent the last 6 years on a renovation project, whilst we are living in the middle of it all, it a might add, I have learnt a lot about project management...and you don't leave it until the week you leave to think about re-wiring a property.

Sorry to be a bit negative but there are a large number of people on this forum who have been-there-seen-that-got-the-t-shirt, give them a bit more notice next time and you will arrive at your project forwarned and forarmed.

good luck anyway 

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[quote user="andyh4"]

[quote user="scotslassie"]  Absolute common sense tells us that you cant have switches/ sockets in bathrooms and things need to be earthed.  [/quote]

 

Actually you can have switches and sockets in a bathroom-.  There are however strict rules about whereabouts - which is why the good posters above suggested that you get the authoratitive book.

[/quote]

The OPs statement clearly shows the danger of giving the information on heights etc that was requested would have been dangerous because of their perceived thoughts of what is and is not permissible.

Also agree with the comment of 'what have they been doing in the 50 weeks since their last visit. Ample time to obtain the bible and have it to hand to guide them through - it runs to a couple of hundred pages, which should indiacte that a little bit more than information is required than just what the OP asked.

Personally, I think we have all given you the best information that you need to act on - GET THE BOOK.

Paul

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Thanks for the second bout of posts....I know I rustled a few feathers but it did prise a few more snippets of info from you all![;-)]     Re the gaine - thanks Quillan and AN other - I had guessed that it would be a better idea to pull thro several cables in one gaine so appreciate your suggestion of 25mm, it makes much more sense but I wasnt too sure what other sizes it came in and I am sure it will be a nightmare to pull through in most sizes!   As for the bathroom comment - I really meant light switch better on outside and that you wouldnt put a socket for your hoover or tv over the bath.....  I know that the wee light over the sink is usually next to the shaver point too.....  its just when you are trying to write quickly with the least amount of waffling its easier to not go into too much detail......  should have known someone would want to comment on it[:D]  I have looked at some of the links, one I have printed off, the other I get error messages....  Someone else kindly PMd me with a different site which I have also printed off relevant info from.  Unfortunately these sites dont tell me heights I need which I presume will be in the BIBLE I dont have.  I appreciate that the book would be useful but cant risk it arriving in UK after we have departed.  There is no post box at the barn so nothing gets sent there either and would be worried it would go astray if we tried to get it sent to a local campsite so thats really out . 

I havent said we wouldnt like to speak to a French electrician, just that it is probably not possible prior to first fix and we need to get on.  If we only get one wall of plasterboard on then c'est la vie..... but I simply wanted to run as many cables as possible, particularly on certain walls that wont require many sockets or switches, if any, to get things moving.  I know how hard it is to get tradesmen to turn up when you really need them so cant rely on finding one until two days before we go home, hence seeking advice.    We usually find we get more done than anticipated each visit so assume that we may get to insulation/plasterboard stage before the end of the fortnight- I certainly hope so anyway, even with other little jobs that need doing its still well within timescales. The ceiling timbers are less than straight so theres lots of strapping/levelling to do first.  The internal walls will easily be done in a few days even without power saws etc. I do not intend cutting any cables or connecting any up because I suspect no electrician will want to get involved or sign it off if they havent done that themselves....  I will be leaving this to French electrician when I find a suitable one.  Because of the simplicity of the layout and size of barn I want to run some of the cabling but know that socket heights in uk (400-450mm) may not be same as France which seem to be around 200-300mm.... also heights of switches in UK are now lower than they used to be - now around 1200mm is where our sparkys put them.  I just hoped someone could answer these questions without an 'it depends' or 'you should know this and if you dont you shouldnt be doing anything' when actually the questions I originally asked werent really that difficult!  Its not like I am going to sue anyone for incorrect advice!![6] 

ps, sorry sid, seem to have upset you the most and I am sure you meant well![kiss] but you are more than welcome to visit when its finished in 2030!!  No, really 2 weeks can get lots done if you know what you are doing.  Our biggest hold ups are getting rid of rubbish without a trailer and having to lug water to site in containers....etc.  A few more visits and its just cosmetic stuff....The fosse and elec/water connections will be done by someone else so that doesnt count.

 

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Sorry - just seen the last 2 posts.  Honeysuckle and Paul - The other 50 weeks a year we both work usually 5 or 6 days a week (both kind of in construction !! tho I have several more responsibilities too), have horses, hobbies and I am in various art groups (club secretary etc), take a few painting/glass commissions and do open studios etc which are used to pay for the renovations....  I agree that I didnt give anyone much time to post and we could have got the book months ago but we had a change of plan only last week so upstairs and electrics are now the priority rather than the ground floor which we could still do but will gain far less benefit from doing this visit.  Unfortunately I spend so much time organising everyone else that my things are often left to the last minute.  Its like 'why is a joiners house never finished but he is always doing stuff for friends and family'......or why it took 6 years to renovate/project manage the barn you live in but ours is halfway there in 6-8 weeks.....albeit over 4 years period..but from no planning to permission granted!!  We have ripped out all the joists, raised and replaced them with new where necessary, floored the whole barn upstairs, knocked through windows, patio doors, fitted all except one remaining window which we are leaving til last because its currently the old entrance and we still need to get in and out that way with barrows, timber etc.......  That doesnt include the pointing, building up the wallheads, jungle/garden management and disposal (tractor and trailer the year before last, almost 5 days worth), hacking centuries of ivy from ground to roof tiles on two sides of the building off a ladder [:(] and re-tiling about a third of the front roof-not my favourite bit I must admit (bit high), sourcing materials and collecting them in our old campervan - yeah, great... cement on the bed... , helping (more like DOING!!)  a slap thro and fitting window upstairs for neighbour as favour for taking away rubbish.....  I am sure there are things I have forgotten like making new timber gates for garden etc ... ah, yes, all that with no electricity or running water. Also, being only 5ft tall its been pretty hard work lifting the other end of some of the joists/beams and patio doors etc into place, unloading bags of cement/sand etc especially in unbearable hot spells like last year in June..... Somehow, I thought we were getting on fine considering the very limited time we have spent there but maybe we should have asked to be project managed so we could take longer....   [:@]  No doubt someone will come up with a reason why we shouldnt have done it in this order but we know our (my OHs) capabilities and timescales for building/joinery jobs to almost the half day and I just labour where I can.... It works very well this way and we havent anyone to wait for until we start on fosse/electrics 2nd fix etc when hopefully we wont even need to be there.

Honeysuckle, We are not stressed about our working holiday because we see it as a long term investment to enjoy and despite working reasonably hard whilst there we still manage to go fishing (me drawing) or cycling most nights or at least the occasional day trip each holiday.  If my partner wasnt self employed we could take longer holidays and get done much quicker but sadly he doesnt get paid when not working for others... Well, you did ask!  Maybe we can go back to the original topic now?! Or just forget about the whole blasted thing?!

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[quote user="scotslassie"]

or why it took 6 years to renovate/project manage the barn you live in but ours is halfway there in 6-8 weeks.....albeit over 4 years period

[/quote]

 

So you've taken 4 years so far not 6-8 weeks, another 2 weeks this year and 2 next year and you're up to 6 years whereas I will be up to 8. You seem to have achieved a lot in "actual" time and I hope you've learned from the experience.

No project is the same, or peoples finances, or motivation or knowledge or family commitments etc etc. So it's nigh on impossible to make effective comparisons. I think i've done OK considering it was just about all me (you try lifting 150 pieces of plasterboard up two stories on your own!). Although with my kids a bit older now they are eventually becoming useful, we re-roofed the grange last year (285m2) and my 13yr old got quite useful with a nailgun.

Working away from the family and only getting home 1 weekend in 4....it's no surprise these things take time. I, like your partner, am self employed so I understand the problem of not earning if you're not working. You should try being self-employed in the french system!

It's a difficult juggling situation most of us find ourselves in. Believe you me, if I had the money I would pay someone else to do it.

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Mark, excellent! And I bet he can sell that for more than mine!! 

Honeysuckle, I was just pointing out that our project management is actually going pretty well and in a sensible order ie wind and watertight first.  In actual time spent there I am more than happy although like you. if I had the money I would gladly pay someone to bump it along a bit.  As you can see its easy to be misinterpreted when only giving half a picture...  a case of - I know what I meant even if I havent phrased it to read correctly or used the right technical term...

Havent really gained any experience to date as the electrics are the only thing I have not yet challenged myself with, all the other things I have seen or done for various projects, both work (gets me out of the office for a change) and personal.  I'm sorry if some posters think I should have bought a 200 page manual a year ago and memorised it sooner but has anyone ever read the manuals re building regs for converting their barns? I think there will be a fair few who have just asked for advice and then done it.... although I appreciate that electrics can be the most dangerous to make a mess of.

The long and short of it is I am now armed with some helpful links and some extremely specific information PMd to me which is more than adequate for what I want to do.  I will 'blunder' on and doubt I will get finished but at least its a start.  I will let you know how I got on in a month of so when I have recovered so again, thanks for all the help[:D] (and the interesting comments about my ability to achieve something I decided to do at short notice![:P])

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