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Heating costs


redwood
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I'm renovating a house with no central heating - just an electric hot water system and some air conditioning units. The house is in the Lot and Garonne, near Duras, so the weather isn't too cold but we wanted to put in a few radiators - probably no more than 7 and upgrade the electric hot water system.

I've been looking at various heating methods; gas, electric, oil and wood chips but cannot find much info on the relative all in cost. i.e. the cost of purchase of the various types of boiler, the cost of fuel and the running costs.

Does anyone know if a source that gives these comparisons? 

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[quote user="redwood"]. The house is in the Lot and Garonne, near Duras, so the weather isn't too cold -[/quote]

I wouldn't be too sure about that - we are in the next dept south and it gets very cold most winters. Especially this last Feb. Maybe the cold doesn't last long, but it can be extreme;

We have gas heating and during the cold spell the heating didn't work because the pressure valves on the tank froze up.

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Can't help with a comparison source - can only give you a rough idea of our costs.

All electric (modern) rads 7 x 1.5kw (2 are effectively redundant - never used), electric hw, elec cooking etc, no gas. House reasonably well insulated, but far from perfect. EDF bill roughly €2.5k p.a. all up.

I guess that you'd have to reckon on a minimum of €500 / rad installed.

A new ballon for the hw - say another €500 installed, but add more if the plumbing is iffy.

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I reckon that it's a good idea to have a combination just in case.

This winter we had some power cuts, but fortunately I have one of those paraffin stoves to heat my small living space.

In a country house I had a wood burner + electric radiators

Some times you need an alternative, and sometimes you need an extra.

I believe that Electricity prices in France are tipped to rise over 20% in the next couple of years, which is another factor to bear in mind.

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[quote user="NormanH"]I believe that Electricity prices in France are tipped to rise over 20% in the next couple of years, which is another factor to bear in mind.
[/quote]

Hmmm - I'd be interested to know who's tipping that sort of increase Norman.  Doubt that it was part of Hollande's election manifesto!

Anyway ............. my neighbour told me that I was mad installing electric rads some years back. A heating oil system was the best route. (It wasn't for us - it would have meant ripping the place apart to instal the pipework etc).

He now concedes that he spends €2k+ on fioul and €1k+ on electricity.

Comparisons are virtually impossible to make though, because as ever it all depends on the dwelling insulation and the temperature that you're prepared to live with.

I'd certainly agree with Norman about having options though - a wood burner is a route that I want to pursue, because most of the heat from our open fire goes up the chimney!!

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We have an all electric house plus a wood burning stove which we rarely use.   Twelve electric radiators, an old house, renovated in 1995/6 so not modern insulation and we spent about 2,000 euros on our last full year to mid-November 2011.

Our monthly payment at present is 191 euros for 11 months and we expect that will more or less balance for this current year.  We do not keep the house really hot but neither are we cold. We are in La Manche.

H.

Edit:  we reckon that we spend about 3 euros a day in the summer and up to 10 more more in the winter if it is very cold. I should say that we have a dishwasher, which we run overnight on cheap tariff, water is heated at night and we do NOT have a tumble dryer!

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We are a family of 4 in a large 4 bed house. Our electric bill of €950 includes the boys computers, games, 2 sitting rooms of TV etc plus HW (we are on EJP). We use 2 wood burning stoves plus a Esse Ironheart to heat the house (wood used 15 x €49) .... if it gets really cold then the GCH kicks in (once or twice this year in the early morning). So total energy costs of circa €1700.
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You're in a pretty good position, Redwood, since you are currently renovating and not undoing possible poor previous heating options.  But what to opt for, for long term economy and efficiency is like hunting for the holy grail.  Without a doubt, though, go over the top on insulating and draghtproofing your home because the lower you can make the heat losses the less hard (and costly) it will be for whatever heating system you adopt.  A good place to look for impartial technical info is the Energy Saving Trust website, http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/england/Info/Site-map it's a bit of a maze but there are some exellent guides for renovation projects along with running cost comparisons (have a look in the proffessional sections as well).  Perhaps look into finding someone independant to carry out some heat loss calculations for you.  Once you know the total heat losses you will know how many kW of any fuel will keep you warm in the coldest days.  Look on the net for the calorific values for different fuels, then find the cost per kW for each to give you some running costs.  http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,20041&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL 

At the moment we have two 9kW wood burners and a cuisiniere with back boiler to heat 450 cubic meters. We used two cord of wood this year which I obtained when cheap, i.e. by felling, splitting and transporting timber myself offered in the classifieds (60E per cord all in), and we have some woodland to coppice (an accident when we bought, not clever forward thinking!). Our electricity bill this year will be around 450E. I have found huge savings in costs and amount of wood used as I have progressed with insulating the house - I can't stress enough the value of doing this. And it will help keep the house cool in hot weather.  On the downside, handling wood for burning is b****y hard work!

My wish list would be for a combination of a wood gasification boiler+rads, linked with solar water and a large storage tank, with electric back-up. The wood boiler takes batches that burn really hot to heat water in a large storage tank, providing hot water for rads and domestic use when required.  The solar panels provide domestic hot water in spring summer and autumn, and help to pre-heat for the radiators in winter.  There wouldn't be much change from about 15k for all this though, and that's with me doing some of the work.  I can't see oil prices reducing in the near future, and although electricity is still relatively cheap power cuts do still occur. I think you will still be able to find good deals on wood for some time to come, that's why I've gone down that root and not heat pumps for instance, and installing an underfloor system is more than we could afford.

Don't be fooled about winter temperatures in your area, we have friends in Haute Vienne who experience very cold periods in winter.

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A couple of comments:-

Headinclouds is absolutely correct about insulation, insulation is the cheapest form of heating you can buy.

You don't really need someone independent to do the heat loss calculations ( which MUST be done ), the maths is pretty simple although quite repetitious. The required info is available on the net and why pay someone to do a relatively simple task that you can do yourself.

If you opt for a ''heat store'' system as mentioned, sizing is critical and the store itself should be 'super-insulated' beyond that supplied commercially.

Wood burning is, IMHO, the only way to go. Oil can only increase in price as can electricity. LPG is a definite no-no. Gaz de Ville is almost certainly not available. My personal preference is wood pellets rather than log gasification, primarily because a pellet system can be fully automated which means, as one gets older, there is no need to cut, stack, carry and load logs. Not a problem of course when you are young and fit enough to do it but we are all getting older by the day.

Only my personal views of course - each to his own.
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[quote user="Gardian"]

[quote user="NormanH"]I believe that Electricity prices in France are tipped to rise over 20% in the next couple of years, which is another factor to bear in mind.

[/quote]

Hmmm - I'd be interested to know who's tipping that sort of increase Norman.  Doubt that it was part of Hollande's election manifesto!

Anyway ............. my neighbour told me that I was mad installing electric rads some years back. A heating oil system was the best route. (It wasn't for us - it would have meant ripping the place apart to instal the pipework etc).

He now concedes that he spends €2k+ on fioul and €1k+ on electricity.

Comparisons are virtually impossible to make though, because as ever it all depends on the dwelling insulation and the temperature that you're prepared to live with.

I'd certainly agree with Norman about having options though - a wood burner is a route that I want to pursue, because most of the heat from our open fire goes up the chimney!!

[/quote]

It was

le président de la Commission de régulation de l'énergie (CRE), Philippe de Ladoucette

http://lci.tf1.fr/economie/consommation/tarifs-edf-30-en-4-ans-6938387.html

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Eleven replies since the OP first made his / her posting & not a word.

After more than a few years, I don't know why I should be surprised - but it still rankles.

I know ............ it'll be "I was off the air", or "Busy" (and you retirees aren't) type of response.  Or maybe nothing.

Mods - can we introduce a smiley which says "I won't have the manners to respond to any input that you may submit"? 

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Fair do's Norman, and I suppose that the Regulator (if I understood correctly that he was the person making the statement) is a reliable enough source!

You'd have thought though that he'd have been making statements like "The Industry will be seeking above-inflation increases over the coming years to fund new investment and further safety measures in the light of the Japanese disaster, but these will be rigorously examined for their justification on behalf of the public at large."

Maybe he did and all the Press picked up on was the headline of possible 6% increases.

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Lots of conditionals, and it has been highlighted mainly by the 'eco' press, but in the context of the OP about Heating costs it is a possibility to bear in mind.

It would be nice to have an energy sufficient house in a small garden with your own water supply..

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[quote user="Gardian"]

Eleven replies since the OP first made his / her posting & not a word.

After more than a few years, I don't know why I should be surprised - but it still rankles.

I know ............ it'll be "I was off the air", or "Busy" (and you retirees aren't) type of response.  Or maybe nothing.

Mods - can we introduce a smiley which says "I won't have the manners to respond to any input that you may submit"? 

[/quote]

But to be fair to the OP, he only asked for a website of comparisons, which Boilingafrog gave him in the first post.

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[quote user="Boiling a frog"]But he didn't say "" Thank you so terribly much old chap, you are a spiffing chap""[/quote]

But he might have thought you wouldn't understand English; I mean he might have drawn some sort of conclusion when he looked at your avatar.  Still, I suppose he could have said merci instead.[;-)]

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  • 3 weeks later...

Well interesting replies that have been very useful and informative. I think I have enough points of reference to give me all the info I should need, so grateful thanks to those who supplied the information. The points about insulation are appreciated as the property - assuming the purchase goes through - will need a lot of insulation, but as it is a 200 year old house/part wine chai and a separate gite it will be a combination of insulation and maintaining the character. Little point in buying an historic property and then ripping out or covering up every original detail including the stone walls.

So far the electric option for heating seems the least favorite with wood burners (some already there) and a wood chip/pellet boiler; despite the higher up front cost being the best medium term solution.

Tounge in cheek apologies to the "complainers" for a lack of response. I'm not prepared to defend my schedule but with several trips to France plus a holiday since my original post there has been little time to check the Forum. As the question was not urgent, in the sense of time, I have only checked on the replies today. Perhaps when I do move to France I will use the Forum more as a social chat site and be able to use it as an alternative to Twitter. Renovations etc. permitting.

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