Jump to content

Paying a builder 50% deposit


Rtony
 Share

Recommended Posts

I've found a plasterer and accepted his quote. He now wants 50% deposit. What's the best way to send him the money from the UK that will give some security if the works not done. He has no credit card machine.

Thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

NO NO NO! You do not have to put 50% up front. Nearer to 30% is being generous. No artisan worth his salt will ask for that sort of deposit and we certainly never did unless it was to order something special like a non standard bathroom suite or expensive tiles which are all non returnable and would belong to the client anyway once the whole amount is paid on collection. Have a read through these forums and see the sob stories of folks who have paid half or even the whole amount up front and been left high and dry. You are also an absent client so you will not be on site to make sure the work is being carried out and have you checked the artisan out to make sure he is insured and has the proper registration papers too? A credit card in France is not something that is used like the UK and certainly no artisan would have the means to accept one. You could arrange with your French bank to pay him upon presentation of his official invoices to them direct from your account ifyou are really worried, we used to have clients who did that and we could also keep a check onthem by asking the bank if there was sufficient funds to pay for the work too, so it works both ways. If he is a brit artisan, he must do all paperwork in French too!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hello Val and Quillan

He's a french man and has a siret number on his quote. The work to be carried out is insulating and plaster boarding the walls and ceiling in one room and has asked for €2000 in advance. As far as him having insurance and proper registration papers I wouldn't know where to look or what I was looking at.

I've been looking on the internet in the 'find a tradesman in France' sites and received a reply from 'PointP' that recommended this person. Strangely, the emails from 'PointP' have gone missing and I can't find any reference on the internet at all from them.

He has several internet entries for his menuiserie insulation and plasterboarding company.

I can't really pay him in stages as I'm not there and won't know what he's done. I told him I'd be at the house at the beginning of July and he said the work would be finished by then.

Very difficult to know what to do.

Thanks
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, he must give you an official printed devis stating his SIRET number which is his registration to work number, his TVA number if he is TVA registered and it begins with FR and is a very long number, his insurance Deçenelle and Civile number and name of insurer and policy etc. If he cannot furnish any of these, DO NOT TOUCH WITH A BARGEPOLE. Only properly registered artisans would have these and only be too pleased to let you know if they are genuine. You can also check him out and what he is registered as on infobilan.fr or infogreffe.fe or manageo.fr

To me, asking that sort of money up front means he is living on the edge regarding his business and in effect you are paying him before he does any work at all and also be aware that being absent means there is no one to see what is going on nor chase him up.Do you speak good French and know what he is quoting for and have discussed it with him? On the other hand he may well be the genuine product, there are many out there but no one I know and that included my OH would ever ask for that sort of money up front apart from what I explained for. Also you need to have a stage payment contract signed by both parties to protect you and if you have stipulated a start and finish date, this is only valid if BOTH parties sign and agree! Anyone can put good citations on the internet and to be honest if you are a good worker you do not need to advertise a lot as you are always in demand! We had many many absent clients over the years and they always paid by French bank account cheques whenever we sent an invoice or a bank transfer so there is no excuse for you not being able to pay him in stages. You have been warned!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It always pays to try and imagine put yourself in the other persons shoes, not easy when you are one of the parties or may have been ripped off before.

Insulation is very expensive in France and if its a case of just Rolling out into place then the labour wont be significant, plasterboard reasonably priced but hydrofuge, ignifuge and accoustic all really expensive, add to that the rails etc and it could be that the materials for this job are 50% or more.

I think I read that the OP does not live in France, he/she are unknown to the artisan, its not unreasonable to ask for the cost of materials up front.

As many horror stories that you have heard about artisans taking a deposit and not doing the work (which happens far less in France than the UK) then they will have heard several of how non resident customers argue a bill once the job is done or how long it can take to get paid by them. Most probably communication issues due to not being on site and the language difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People around here are pathologically mistrusting of others, I'm sure its because they assume veryone is as immoral and amoral as they are, everybody wants 50% up front, all the time that any sign of kindness or neighbourliness is seen as a weakness to be exploited to the maximum the practice will continue.

I once had a plaquiste who was going to do my bandes, working on the black with me buying all the materials, even he was insistent on 50% up front and could not see the stupidity of it, I lived here permanantly, he was coming the following weekend but was convinced that he would do the work and not be paid, not because I was a (insert your own word) foreigner but because he had been bumped by locals.

It took a hell of a lot of persuasion for him to accept to be paid at the end of each day for the proportion of the work he had done.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Val.

The devis is printed out with details of the work to be done. A Siret number is on the devis but no TVA (he's charging 5.5%) or insurance numbers.

He said that the work would take 3 weeks and he would start on the 10th of this month. If this is the case and taking into account your warnings the best I would offer him would be, no cash upfront and payment when I see the work at the beginning of July. How does that sound?

I'm embarrassed to say that I've given him a key to the house.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but confused. He is charging 5,5% TVA? In that case he has to be TVA registered with the printed on all his paperwork by law and as I said the number begins FR and could be ten or more numbers long. 5,5% TVA has not existed for some time now and he should also have printed on his paperwork that he is insured. When a devis is done, all the amounts should be listed along with what they are for and also the amount of TVA to be charged andthen the final TTC so the client knows what he will be paying.

Well, as I said its upto you and hopefully he will be a good trustful artisan who knows his trade,time will tell. When OH registered here originally he had to do a week's stage de gestion at the Chambre de Métiers to gain his Siret number and amongst the things they taught him was that you should ask for a deposit on starting work but not that sort of amount, do a contract for stage payments to be agreed and always have at least a minimum of two clients on the go at all times so the money flows and cotisations are always paid. I would get a neighbour to check on what is going on in your absence and keep in touch with you if at all possible.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Surely, you can charge TVA even if you are not registered for TVA - it will increase your profit :)

Chancer I have seen the price of plasterboard and insulation in France but unless the OP has a room the size of a cathedral is 2,000 euros for materials a bit excessive?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It soon adds up - Hydrofuge for areas where there will be damp/water etc and normal BA13 elsewhere, rails,screws,jointing tape and adhesive, insulation plus delivery charge from Point P via lorry which can be well over a €100 depending on distance and load and finally the labour charges. You cannot invoice a client for TVA unless you are registered to do so. If the artisan is under the AE scheme they are not TVA registered and with that regime the client usually buys the materials himself anyway. A TVA reg artisan must also give an attestation to the client filled in with the relevant details and a copy kept by the artisan for the Impôts to verify if they do an audit at any time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

PaulT

€2000 for materials is about as reasonable as €4000 for doublage and a ceiling in one room [:-))] But they are not asking for money for materials, they are asking for 50% like everyone around here does.

"Reasonable" being the operative word, its reasonable to expect someone to only ask for money up front to cover what they have to pay out in advance, but reason, or having a reasonable discussion just isnt possible with an ingrained mentality of "thats what I was told to do (on m'a dit!) and thats what we all do"

Tradition will be the death of France.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This contractor has definitely been recommended as an insulator by PointP(http://www.pointp.fr/pages/devis-travaux/devis-travaux-all.html), I've found the email. I'd like to ask them why they recommended him but you can't reply apart from by ringing France.

I've asked him for hisTVA numbers and insurance details.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you will find now all artisans are obliged by law to have all their details printed on their letterheads for devis/factures etc including TVA reg number and insurance company details plus SIRET and APE number. As I said you can find out about him by either his name or address on those internet sites which list every registered business in France including individuals.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd like to know the answers to these questions too Paul, but the email recommending the tradesman has a reference number on it and a French 0811 phone number for questions. The email is a no reply one. They give no criteria for recommendation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread reminds me of frequently asked questions when I first joined this forum. I could never imagine how someone living in the UK could trust someone in another country to do expensive work for them, without being there to oversee etc. I still can't. 

Not  just because the workers might not be honest or competent, but because there are always questions along the way, unexpected problems etc.

For the worker's sake too, he often needs to consult his/her employer at certain stages of the works.

My husband was a tradesman too at one time and would have been uncomfortable working for an absent employer.

Personally, RTony, I would wait until I was in France to have the work done, and go and buy the materials myself.  Wait until then to decide whether to give a deposit, and if so how much.

Perhaps I'm over cautious, but it's better for both parties to be onsite together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...