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Talking kitchens


mint
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Oh, Rose, I remember coming to your home - and those cakes! It was Cooperlola's Itchy Feet Tour, such a lovely lady, so good to have such a pleasant get-together.

I just love all my kitchen drawers, so easy to find everything, and getting down on my knees is bad enough, but getting back up is a major problem some days.

I enjoyed reading through the whole lot - is it really 16 pages?

Hope all's well with you and your lovely husband and charming son.
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Hello - it was indeed the Itchy Feet Tour and dear old Coops. 

We are all very well thanks ... I've just today finished painting my kitchen... I may even bake a carrot cake now [:D]

Maybe we should meet up again in the spring/summer.. when the weather is a bit warmer... I'm happy to make more cake [blink]

p.s. hope you and yours are all well too[:D]

EDIT - and dont mention my knees... on my last day before Santiago (19km to go) I fell over smack onto my knees and even now 3 months later they are still tender.  I really hope I haven't done any permenant damage as I'm walking again in April... although only 350km this time

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A good friend of ours, who makes beautiful musical instruments has an ikea kitchen and bathroom units. For all he could make such units himself, he says that quality price they are excellent.

And the other thing I would have if I were in France are two full sinks and at least one drainer incorporated. I have two full sinks here, very hard to get hold of, and they are not as deep as the french sinks I have had, and I prefer a deep sink. A sink and a half is no good to me at all and for all  I can manage with one, would never want to ever again.

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Hi Idun

We bought the double oven with pyrolytic cleaning, it's a range style with 6 rings.  It was not a cheap oven and so I was expecting great things. 

The fan oven doesn't cook evenly - if I'm baking a quiche I always have to turn it half way through so it is an even brown... it's not a huge issue but I would have expected that to not be an issue.

The pyrolytic cleaning was a disaster - we used the setting once to clean the oven before we went on holiday... and I had a friend house-sitting.  The glass door exploded a bit like this https://www.flickr.com/photos/royaltech/4413992813/

When we contacted SMEG they basically said that's unfortunate, you need to buy a new piece of glass and pay for us to instal it.  It's not a unique experience... if you search google it seems to happen too often for it not to be of concern.

I've never used the setting since but it was one of the reasons we bought the cooker.

Also, the hob rings no longer light automatically.  They stopped one by one and again SMEG say we must have their engineer out to fix them... we were quoted 160€.  The first one went after just a couple of years.

The cooker we bought was almost twice the price of our previous range but we thought we were buying new technology and a trusted brand.  We've found the technology to be dissappointing and the customer service non-existant.  But, I am open to just being unlucky?

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Unfit for purpose springs to mind, if there are others a class action under EU rules.  If it's not pyrolytic glass and just toughened then it's not surprising it burst/exploded

How can a fan not circulate the air properly in such a small cavity, beggars belief but thanks for the heads up Rose it was on our shopping list but no more.

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I must say I never knew about this glass problem and ours works OK but then I don't use this method of cleaning. What I didn't realise is the cost of the actual clean because of the temperature the oven has to reach and sustain. I just use spray on oven cleaner once a week and thats good enough for me.

All fan assisted ovens suffer from air circulation issues and some worse than others. It depends on the size and shape of cooking container you put in the oven and the ovens inside measurements. Our house came with a Neff oven and the circulation was very poor, the Smeg is a lot better because the oven is bigger but we use the same cooking containers. Possibly better insulation allows the actual oven to be bigger on the inside compared to the older ovens but I don't really know. What I do now is that a lot of recipes I have mention cooking in a 'normal' or fan oven. If a fan oven is used the temperature is normally a little lower and in many cases it tells you to turn the item being cooked (normally cakes and bread) half way through to get an even cook. Given that they could never know what oven I would own this seems to indicate that this is a cooking technique that is unique to fan ovens in general. Mrs Q does not like electric ovens and prefers gas which does, like solid fuel ranges, cook very evenly. Unfortunately you can only get full gas cookers in France as 'slot in' cookers, well that was the case when we looked.

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Q, in much the same way the air flow around an oven mirrors the water flow around a swimming pool and sticking a fan just anywhere won't allow a proper flow same as Desjoyaux, Magiline and Waterair to name but 3 of the swimming pools but I hadn't realised this would be so much of an issue in an oven

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It's the volume of the oven thats the issue and because they are all designed to fit a standard size (60cm) kitchen unit. Now the oven on my range is 60cm because it has a small oven to the right of it but my cousin has a 90cm wide range with a single oven 90cm wide and it cooks more evenly because it has the volume. You need to look at the spec and in particular the number of litres it is. The bottom line is most tend to be 62 litres and those that have a bigger capacity only tend to have two or three litres more which makes a little difference but not a big one. Don't be conned into thinking built in vertical double ovens might be better because in general the main oven size is around 10 Litres smaller (52/53 Litres). Thats why professional chefs have two ovens side by side if they need a double oven or go for a range.

PS. The fan is nearly always in the same place, at the back in the middle. I often wondered if you placed the fan to the side at the back it might cook better but I guess they have tried this in the past and the centre is the best place.

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Quillan.

How many kws is your 62 litre oven that will go from nought (and I am guessing that you mean 20°c) to 200°c in 4 minutes?

The best thing I ever did was Junk my built in oven that would take at least 20 minutes if not longer to get to temperature and use a halogen counter top cooker, that does go from ambient to 200° in 2 or 3 minutes but its only 17 litres and 1300watts albeit not as well insulated as a good oven should be.

I have got through 2 elements in 5 years but thats across both ovens in France and UK, I have aslo broken a couple of the bowls by putting water in them when they were heated.

The newer ones are better than the old as they have stainless internals and dont corrode, leaving the lid on after cooking causes condensation, if ever there is a more expensive pro version that really has benefits ultimately I would buy one but at the moment the focus is on gimmicks.

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[quote user="Quillan"]

It's the volume of the oven thats the issue and because they are all designed to fit a standard size (60cm) kitchen unit.

PS. The fan is nearly always in the same place, at the back in the middle. I often wondered if you placed the fan to the side at the back it might cook better but I guess they have tried this in the past and the centre is the best place.

[/quote]

No it isn't Q, whilst large may even out the eddys created with circulation it's plain old lazy design, tight accountancy poor & R&D.

As you say the element is placed in the same point, why to accomodate the standard element manufacture to reduce costs and certainly not for hot air flow. Yes I would agree with you directing the fan to form a circular flow would work so much better, the centre facing forward is not the best place for air flow. I am surprised it makes so much difference though to as you say a small enclosure.

Chancer uses a much smaller unit still but with circular air flow hence even cooking.  Shame i didn't know you'd broken the bowl Chancer only scrapped ours the other month, bowl intact

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So many interesting points to pick out that I don't know where to start!

I will go with the points most relevant to me therefore so please excuse me if I have left out anyone's post.  I am truly grateful for ALL of the discussion on here.

OK then, the OVEN!!!

No Smeg definitely.  I had already queried Smeg as it's Italian!  No, nothing against Italian designs which are often slick and even sensuous.  However, from handbags and shoes to cars and furniture, nothing seems to last!  I'd spent loads of dosh on Italian clothes and accessories and they are wonderful to show off in but, within a short time, stitches are coming undone, zips are refusing to do up or do down and I am generally left regretful of having spent so much.

Anyone heard of Baumatic and are their products any good?  I ask because I have seen a nice hood, with colour choice, in the shape of an inverted funnel so there is less chance of anyone banging their heads painfully on it.

Then the all-important size of the oven............is 70 litres too big and what is the most  common, that is, popular, size?

As long as it has a good grill, I am not too bothered about multi-function this and that.  I have had expensive ovens in the past that can do a jig whilst it roasts your meat but really all the functions I need would be grill, ordinary cooking and fan for some things.

Question for Chancer.............Chance are those lames senseo pieces that you put on your floor using Sikaflex still looking nice and are they still easy to clean?  You see, I'd noted everything that you have said as I know you are this most enthusiastic and knowledgeable DIYer[:)]

To Rose and idun, I have decided on Ikea so thanks for your opinions and, to Rose particularly, thanks for the invitation to view your kitchen which I am sure displays all the flair and functionality that I would expect chez toi.

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[quote user="Chancer"]

Quillan.

How many kws is your 62 litre oven that will go from nought (and I am guessing that you mean 20°c) to 200°c in 4 minutes?

[/quote]

I had to go look that one up, 3.2kw to temp then 800W for the fan. I would say that in an hour the heating side comes on about three times for about five minutes each time. Having had the back off to connect it up it is very well insulated.

As to getting rid of your oven well good for you but then your in to saving money and probably don't cook pies, bread, cakes and thins whch you cooker does not (from what I read) cook. My slow cooker does for me and that burns a tenth of your halogen job. At the end of the day thats not the point though is it, most people with families and who like cooking prefer an oven.

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[quote user="mint"]
Then the all-important size of the oven............is 70 litres too big and what is the most  common, that is, popular, size?

[/quote]

They all seem to be around 62 litres. I assume you leave the grill tray out when just using the oven (we did) otherwise the capacity is smaller (size of grill tray).

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Talking slow cookers as humbug has made the kitchen decision if not the cooker [:)]

Mine gets very hot to the touch externally, do others?  It would seem a waste of energy and I was looking to plug it into my car to cook a meal rather than buy a Mc Do do and prevent me from eating junk all the way across france

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Yes, slow cookers, at least the cheap ones even though they are low wattage are very poorly insulated, as for Q's point, yes they use far less than a halogen oven but we are comparing apples with eggs, the slow cookers consume electricity all the time, the bulk of it heating the casing and the room, my halogen oven like yours uses a big element to get up to speed quickly and the nonly cuts in a few seconds every few minutes.

If the slow cookers were insulated then they would get up to heat much much quicker.

Yes Q, I no longer cook or eat bread, pizzas, cakes or any other cochonneries, a complete change of lifestyle for me.

I have a slow cooker and do use it at this time of year, I did a duck stew last week, did me for 4 meals and there are another 8 or so in the freezer.

Mint, yes the lames Senseo or in fact mine were Brico-depot cheapies are still looking superb and still remaining stuck fast despite being in an outside shed building that has not been occupied now or heated for several months.

Leroy Merlin always have a good range but do have a look in the brico-sheds as they are much cheaper and you might find something you like.

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Chancer, there was a nutritionist on tv the other night, extolling the virtues of eating bread, both white (even the cheap white stuff) and wholemeal.  There are virtuous elements in both, and should be part of a healthy diet. It is the quantity eaten that is the problem.

 In fact I would go as far as to say that my home made pizza and any bread were not cochonneries. I wholeheartedly accept that my cakes and pastries and scones are!

mint, my worry about laminate flooring, is when one, (well I), cooks a lot, the problem with spillages and splashing with hot liquids and fat.

My brother had the first type of laminate that came out, and put it in his kitchen and it lasted for years, but they really don't cook, but when I was cooking chez eux it was a real worry for me. Then a friend got the waterproofed type and she does cook a lot and that has lasted. However, I am happy with my ceramic tile floor. OK I did drop a pan and chipped one, but I can wash mine down with boiling water when I've been making fish and chips or rustling up some chinese style food. ps, my friend has put an oak floor in her kitchen........ expensive as ..... and I wouldn't dare cook in it![:-))]

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Mint, we've fitted Ikea kitchens in 4 houses in France and have always been happy with them. This time we've had wood worktops (only the cheap ones) and we're very pleased that they're still looking good. We fitted a double oven which we bought in the UK as double ovens aren't very common in France and much more expensive. That was totally compatible with the oven housing we bought from Ikea France. Remember that Ikea kitchens don't have a gap at the back for servic pipes, which gives more room in cupboards and drawers. Make sure you plan for where you'll have towels/teatowels - near the sink if possible.
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[quote user="idun"]Chancer, there was a nutritionist on tv the other night, extolling the virtues of eating bread, both white (even the cheap white stuff) and wholemeal.  There are virtuous elements in both, and should be part of a healthy diet. It is the quantity eaten that is the problem.
 
mint, my worry about laminate flooring, is when one, (well I), cooks a lot, the problem with spillages and splashing with hot liquids and fat.

[/quote]

I am not someone that can do things in moderation especially when it comes to vices like drinking, smoking, eating and women, its either bingefest or total abstinence, I eat very very healthily now by anyones standards and the lack of bread is no longer a hardship, it has no part in a balanced meal other than something on the side to fill up on, in that respect its a cochonnerie, most of what I ate was surrounded by bread and butter/marg, all the takeaways that I used to eat had bread and frites, all the stuff I loved be it Indian, Chinese, Italian, Pizza were mostly carbs be it rice, noodles, pasta, bread etc with a tiny bit of protien and veg, now my meals, and I only eat meals now I no longer snack, never have any more than a quarter of the plate of carbs, I use a ramekin to measure a portion of rice, its now an important part of a balanced meal and not 90% of the meal.

During my working day instead of stopping to cook and eat like now it was always baguette sandwiches, I think that I was eating one and a half baguettes a day and getting through one and a half pots of butter a week which looking back was a huge amount ignoring all the other cochonneries and beer, after  6 months I threw away the tub of butter as I hadnt used it and have never bought butter or marge since.

I am still at 71.6kg exactly where I was 3 years ago after dropping down from a maximum of 106kg, I have more muscle mass now as I cannot wear the shirts of 3 years ago but my waist is the same if not smaller so my body fat has reduced.

Re the flooring, we were talking about self adhesive linoleum "planks" that look and feel like real wood, the trade name ones are Amtiko etc.

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[quote user="Chancer"]

I am not someone that can do things in moderation especially when it comes to vices like drinking, smoking, eating and women, its either bingefest or total abstinence, [/quote]

See it was only a matter of time before we go to sex. [;-)]

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Pommier, another endorsement for Ikea and I have now emailed the installer and told him I had chosen!

Can you or Rose please tell me what model (as near the Swedish name as possible[:)]) that you have installed in order that I can check it online?

BTW, I have decided on the oven!!!

Single, built-in, just the 2 or 3 functions I want (no pyrolyse after someone mentioned how expensive that programme is to use), enameled but easy clean, electrical category A, telescopic shelves and side-opening door, also large digital display for the ...er....optically challenged (thinking of my developing cataracts here).

Only drawback is that this particular model will have to come from the UK.  It's a Belling, same as my very first oven left in the house by the previous (dead) owner and it was in the year 1972!

I didn't think I was especially patriotic but I like the fact that is made in the UK[:)]

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Some interesting info on domestic appliance manufacturers.

(Sorry! Haven't the time right now to set the URLs up as hyperlinks: you will have to Copy 'N Paste!)

http://www.jamescowper.co.uk/news/de-dietrich-uk-to-go-into-liquidation/

http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/about-the-appliance-industry/manufacturer-information/2805-de-dietrich-domestic-appliances.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neff_GmbH

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neff_GmbH#AEG

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[quote user="mint"]Pommier, another endorsement for Ikea and I have now emailed the installer and told him I had chosen!

Can you or Rose please tell me what model (as near the Swedish name as possible[:)]) that you have installed in order that I can check it online?

[/quote]

Mint - all the cabinets are the same, there is a new cabinet called METOD.  Lots of different widths and drawers or shelves... this is the online area http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/categories/departments/kitchen/ but their planner is fairly easy to use and lets you try a few ideas.  http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_GB/rooms_ideas/kitchen_howto/EU/plan_your_kitchen_in_3d.html

I have one kitchen with their old model FAKTUM (which is now gone) and the utility room in the new kitchen METOD... both good but I think the newer one has more solid drawers.

Once you've decided on the cabinets you need you then choose which door front and handles you like .. so totally flexible.

I planned both kitchens using the planner and just printed off the shopping list when I'd done and tool it into Bordeaux.

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