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Should we blame the builder.... or not?


splishsplash
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We have a 3 year old house that has a problem of water ingress through the sides of the roof valleys.

My hubby has had a look & says that the zinc trays should have been wider & there should have been waterproof felt fitted under them.

At the time, we asked why no roofing felt was being used & the (reputable) French building firm told us that it was not used in France & not necessary as it was better to have an air movement through the roof.

We had a hailstorm, followed by heavy rain and where the hail froze in the tray, the following downpour then overflowed into the roof space over the edges of the tray. This then ran along the ceiling, causing it to collapse in one room.

I have pestered them to sort it for ages & the roofer came & inspected it & said that the problem was with the position of the house, leaf fall & wind speed etc. We can have the trays changed for wider ones & ecran (waterproofing) fitted underneath, but it will cost a huge amount of money & I feel that it should have been down to the building company to have specified the correct trays & underfelt in the first place.

I want to go back to the builder & ask for them to contribute at least half towards the remedial work.

I wondered if a roofer or builder can perhaps tell me if they think this is a fair request on my part, as had the correct trays & felting been in place at the start, we would have happily paid a bit extra. Now though, because the tiles & batons will have to be removed, weatherproofing placed & new trays put in, it will cost much more.

I would be grateful for any experienced person to give me some advice please.

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Where I am, the roofers in the Charente Maritime rarely seem to use felt under the tiles but they do lay thin  planks completely over the whole roof to carry the battens. I am guessing the builder did not cement under the tile where it is cut over the valley? If this is so, I would recommend cementing under the tiles up both sides of the valley. If the gap is big enough it would pay to strenghthen the cement by sliding a wire mesh in with the cement. Can't really say much else without seeing the work other than as the builder is reputable, I would imigine he would rectify the work for free. Hope that helps

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[quote user="splishsplash"]I have pestered them to sort it for ages & the roofer came & inspected it & said that the problem was with the position of the house, leaf fall & wind speed etc. [/quote]

So just about everything was wrong apart from their work. That would press all my buttons [:@]

It really shouldn't cost that much to strip off some tiles and amend the trays. The reason it will cost a lot according to the builder/roofer is they have to stop work on another job (loss of income) and supply more soakers for your roof (loss of more money) and spend time putting yours right (yet more loss of income)

It is about time the troglodyte French builders/roofers learnt how it must be done in the 21st century when roofs must be insulated to reach European standards of Co2 emission reduction bearing in mind all new property and property for sale must have an energy efficiency survey (DPE).

Not that it helps your problem but they should morally put it right if it leaks due to wind, house position has it always leaked or just since they carried out the work.

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We can't really tell how long it has leaked. Under normal circumstances, we don't see evidence of leaks, but the leaves do blow in & the insulation material has rows of them on top.

The problem really came to light when the hail froze & the rain backed up & overflowed over the edges of the tray, that's when the ceiling came down & we investigated in the roof space.

You don't really expect this sort of thing to happen with a new build house do you!

I will arrange a meeting with the constructor & see what they are prepared to do about it. If they won't contribute, then I will try getting alternative quotes from some local roofers.

Thank you for the replies.

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The house should be within warranty and therefore there is insurance on it. I believe from reading other posts over the years that you need to communicate in writing with your builder, register post if possible, because to claim you have to show that you have acted 'reasonably' to get the matter resolved with the builder. Perhaps somebody who has been down this route may be able to help guide you.
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Thank you;

There is a 10 year building guarantee, but I believe that this only applies to work that is faulty or something that is broken.

I am not sure how we will stand with a problem like this.

The builder did suggest that I approach our insurance company, but that is not solving the problem.

I could go away for a week during which we have a hailstorm & come back to the ceiling down again.

I will go & talk to them face to face, that is only fair & then If they are not helpful, I will follow it up with a recomandee letter.

I just don't need this hassle, but still!

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Quillan has it right, imo.  We had a similar problem and when our insurers came round (about another matter altogether) they advised exactly as Q does.  My insurer also said that if the letters to the roofers bore no fruit then they (Pacifica) would handle it for me, as I could make a claim for the water damage under my buildings insurance and they would recoup the money from the roofers.    As it happened the roofers came back and put it right but I would recommend making a claim via your buildings policy if all else fails.  Don't repair the damage at your own expense whatever you do - it's not your fault - it's their's.

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If the roof gully backs up and floods the property, surely that is work that is faulty.  I think you have good cause to pursue the insurance route if the builder does not play ball.

 

Regarding roofing felt - and speaking as a non-expert - I have not yet seen one property in France that has this fitted.  Experiene is mainly in Rhone Alpes, where the incidence of violent storms means that the risk of rain being blown under the tiles will be quite high.  This comment applies to new builds, old properties, re-roofed properties and indeed to our own re-roofing on 3 buildings.  We have never had a problem due to this lack of felt.  I am sure you can get roofs felted by specifying this, and I have seen posts where people have stated that they have done just that; but it would not seem to be the norm, and my experience suggests that it is not necessary.  It certainly would not have prevented your flooding problem

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I'm no roofer but I have watched them roof new builds round here and put new roofs on old buildings. First they put up the rafters, then they put what looks like chipboard over the whole roof. Next they cover the lot in black sheeting and battens are run horizontally which the tiles are then 'hooked' over and I guess a fixing of some form is put in.

I have to say I can't see any reason why it would be the OP's problem. The fact that they (the OP) have already said what needs to be done ("We can have the trays changed for wider ones & ecran (waterproofing) fitted underneath") simply reinforces the fact that there is a design or build problem.

Another thing I thought of, is this a build bought of the builders books and then changed slightly or was an architect involved who also became the project manager and if so what was his spec for the roof?

If the builder is worth his salt he would know about the area and any specific environmental problems or does this guy only build houses on the flat with nothing round them. To my mind I get the feeling this guy knows his building but also knows he is wrong, he knows how to 'flannel' and just does not want to put it right. You should pay absolutely nothing to get this fixed, not even half, and don't make any offers to go half, just tell him you want it fixed then write to him with the old "Just to make sure I understand" letter and ask for a reply in writing within 14 days. Give it 30 days then contact the insurer for the warranty.

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Thank you for all your help here.

The posts all have some valid points to make & I'm sure Q is correct.

Yes, they do normally build on the flat & yes we did provide a design which their own architect adapted.

The roofer told me that at the time our house was built, they did not fit felt or waterproof membrane, but that all new houses do have it at the time of construction......  what does that tell you!

I am going to arrange a meeting with the building firm and take my list of bullet points with me.

I will then ask them when they propose to get the work done to correct the problem and see what response I get.

If they don't agree to do the work, then I will send a registered letter stating that I expect them to rectify the work within a time limit & then we will have to see what happens from there.

To be fair, they have never said they will not get it sorted, but they have never seemed over keen to get involved with the problem either, so perhaps a bit more robust argument will do the trick.

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[quote user="woolybanana"]SS, you should do this through your insurers. It will be so much easier.[/quote]

I hear you Woolybanana, but how will that solve the problem of it happening again?

The Insurers will get the ceiling repaired, but they won't pay for the roofing work to be changed will they?

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[quote user="splishsplash"][quote user="woolybanana"]SS, you should do this through your insurers. It will be so much easier.[/quote]

I hear you Woolybanana, but how will that solve the problem of it happening again?
The Insurers will get the ceiling repaired, but they won't pay for the roofing work to be changed will they?
[/quote]I've gone through this so I know!

The insurer will inspect the damage, decide whose fault it was and what caused it, and then order it repaired, either at their expense or your builders (in fact my insurers paid up and I got the work done and they got money from the builder's insurance company.)  They spotted that the zinc guttering work was not correctly done and we got it all replaced and paid for.  In fact we got the money before the work was finished and paid the (different) builders direct.

If the insurance assessor thinks the building work caused the damage then it is in his interest to get it corrected so you don't claim year after year.

But as I said earlier, I did have to send the registered letter to my builders first before getting the insurance company involved.  When they didn't respond, I called my company.

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Sorry perhaps I don't understand this properly but I was under the impression that this is a new build and therefore has a warranty. In the UK we used to call it something like NHBC but in France this does not exist. I was led to believe that it is mandatory for the builder, when building a new house, to take out a 10 year insurance against his work so even if he goes bust a week after it's finished it still has a warranty. So that being the case if there is a fundamental fault with the build, which there seems to be, then either the builder corrects it or you claim off the warranty (which in France is an insurance paid for by the builder and you should have the warranty\insurance document). The ceiling falling down would also be covered by the warranty as it is a direct result of the fault in the build. I was further led to believe that to make a claim on the warranty you first have to prove you have given the builder sufficient opportunity to fix the problem and any damage caused by the problem. If he refuses to do it you then make a claim on the warranty. This is why you need to use registered letters so you have proof that you have given the builder the opportunity but nothing has happened i.e. it is not fixed.

Now, never having had a new house built in France I am no expert but the comments I have made I seem to remember came from this website somewhere.

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Thank you Quillan & Cooperlola,

I now have the route to go down.

I am waiting for the devis from the roofer & when I have that, I shall take it to the building firm

& see what they are going to do about it.

I do have a full ten year house build guarantee, so I am hoping it will be sorted without too much

fuss once I have had a face to face meeting. If not, then I'll follow the instructions that you have so helpfully suggested.

Thanks again.

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I really don't understand why you are getting a devis for the repairs when it should be rectified under the warranty.....that is what your insurance is for. OH is an artisan and, at great expense to us, has the obligatoire10 year insurance on his works. If any of his clents have a major problem with his work (and if this does happen he'd go and fix it immediately... but some don't) they would ask their own house insurance company to get the faults rectified through our assurance decenalle.

Send letters á recommande immediately to the roofers and the architect stating this is your intention if they do not fix the problem within 2 weeks. Talk to your insurance company and tell them that this is the route you have taken, and ask them to send an expert round to assess the problem. Do not involve any other artisans otherwise the insurance will be null and void.

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The roofer is not another artisan, he is the roofer that was employed by the construction firm when the house was first built and sent by the builders to inspect the roof.

To give him his due, he suggests that we contact our insurer, but when I told him that our insurance was through our bank, he said that it will present difficulties for him as in France, he considers the insurance companies to be insurers, but the banks are banks!

I don't quite understand this, as we have all risks cover the same as with any other insurance company. He says that for us it won't be a problem, but for him it will!

Can anyone explain why??

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[quote user="woolybanana"]The bank was simply an agent for the insurance company, so, perhaps the roofer doesnt know what he is on about. Anyway, he would have to deal direct with the insurance company in the event of a claim.[/quote]

Beat me too it Wooly, I believe Banque Populaire uses 'naaf' and other banks use other companies and guess what, you end up paying for it.

You should not be going through your building insurance you should be going through the insurance company that holds the 10 year warranty. As for the roofer, well that's tough luck on him, your the one with the problem, I bet he doesn't have water coming through his roof when it rains and the wind blows in the 'wrong' direction.

Another thing, why get the guy who inspected the roof when the house was built to fix it. If he was sent by the builder and works for the builder where does his loyalty lay, conflict of interest comes to mind. If he bodged it once he could again.

Rather than go back and forth do as we have said, ask the builder to fix it under the warranty (i.e. FOC) and give him a time period to start, be generous give him four weeks, nobody could say you have not given him reasonable time (by registered post), or you will claim on the warranty directly. It's not your place to get quotes, that for the warranty insurers to sort out.

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Indeed Q

 

Unless you had a separate Devi and contract with the roofer, it is the Builder who is at fault (if for nothing else than for choosing the wrong roofer).  Be very certain about who is the responsible and insured person/company.  It is the one you got a quote from and paid for the work done.

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In which case I wish you the best of luck and please keep us informed and I know that any members of the forum who can answer any future questions you may have with regards to this problem will do their best to help you and if they can't will surely know where to find the answer. You are not alone. [:)]
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