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The future of heating.....


JohnM
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Yes, I know it's an odd title. For the 15 years I've had my place in 73 I've been "planning" to put in Gas Central Heating (Heating is not good at the moment... 3 phase electric and Alpine winters mean that if heaters are on and somebody uses... a hair dryer, the trip goes even if I am not up to the full ampage). However.... with talk of Gas being outlawed in 15 years, I am not sure that I want to spend out on a radiator system that will not be ideal in the future.

I have just spent a very enjoyable evening researching various options, heat exchangers, storage heaters, solar panels, photo voltaic panels (I am supplied by a Hydro electric "Regie" so not sure what the situation is with feed in) etc etc etc . I am not there all the time at the moment so want to be able to operate it remotely (that sort of dismisses Storage Heaters). This all means that I am now very confused. So.... any thoughts on what will be best for the future? (Feel free to confuse me more)
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Well you know haw to ask the hard questions John. I have problems predicting next week, the next 15 years is something else again.

Let's start with the gas ban if 15 years. Where does this come from? It is true that some countries (Denmark and Finland) have already started a process to limit or ban the use of fossil fuels for heating in new builds. These countries however have very little fossil fuel resources, so there may be agendas around reducing energy imports as well as burning of fossil fuels.

I am not however aware of anything further and it seems to me to be unlikely that such a ban would come into force all the while that there are plentiful and cheap sources. It is not impossible however that governments will tax the use of fossil fuels (ostensibly to be green but really to fund their deficits). French gas (unless on the mains) has however historically been one of the more expensive ways to heat a house. Cheap gas in 73 is likely to be a relative term.

For the next few years I would expect oil to remain at a low price and therefore gas should also be cheap. Both can be remotely controlled - you did not mention oil in your post. As long as the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Iran can keep from waging direct war they are likely to pump oil like never before - each with their own agenda. KSA wants to break the US development of shale gas and oil products and is pumping like there is no tomorrow. Iran can now re-fund the country and its industry with its oil and will start pumping and ramping up the supply. I suspect they will be less profligate with their supplies.

Provided these two can avoid direct war supplies will remain very free and prices will be low. That situation could reverse overnight if they go to war and the $100 barrel would return within days.

There are risks taking oil or gas.

Photovoltaic on the face of it looks good, but with ever decreasing payments for taking the excess, the financial situation does not look good. If you have to borrow to pay for the installation it is unlikely that you will have a cash neutral installation until at least 20 years - and the cells are far from proven to last that long. One of our local heating installation companies stopped doing cells a couple of years ago on that basis.

Ground sourced heat exchange is a distinct option but you would need to check how deep the pipes would need to be laid where you are and whether digging trenches in the garden to that depth is practical. Of course you also need a garden and be prepared to sacrifice it for 12 - 18 months while it recovers from the work in laying the pipes.

Geothermal boreholes work in a similar fashion but require deep bore holes rather than a shallow pipe network. They require less land but are usually more expensive to install.

Both of these systems will be as good as the heat exchanger installed and at the cheaper end there have been premature failures, so it is worth investing in a quality heat pump.

I suspect you are like us in winter (or colder) so air to air exchange is probably a no-go since there is not enough extractable heat in the depths of winter.

Which of these would work out best (cost - capital and running cost, efficiency, reliability) over the next 15 years is hard to judge; but one question I would ask, is have you examined if your electricity supply can be increased so you do not suffer the current inconveniences of the system tripping?

That probably has not helped much, sorry.

It might be worth looking
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A question I asked myself when we bought this house.

 It has next to no garden....... and a handkerchief garden was high on my priorities when we were buying. However,  it means that we cannot 'plant' anything in the garden to recover heat. Digging straight down...... perhaps not either.

And so we put wood burners in two of the main rooms and personally I would have had a Tulikivi fire if they had been sold in the UK....... and you can look at them and buy them not too far from you John, at Atre et Loisirs, in Arbin, just north east of Montmelian and just off the D1006 (strangely the old route nationale to Albertville, now a D road, odd?). Expensive yes, but I've seen them in action and I think that they are great.

I just hope that we have done the right thing. A few friends have put in solar panels, but they wouldn't heat their homes from the sound of it.

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I think I read somewhere that the latest French regulations for heating for New builds require two types of heating. It makes sense to me as with the problems of the precarious nature of all types of fuel, to be able to switch over from one to the other seems good.

Some of the newer airsource heatpumps do work at very low temperatures.. after all they are used a lot Sweden and Norway.. There is one called the 'icestick'. They all work best with something like underfoot heating, where you don't heat to high temperatures. Our friends have one of the latest pellet boilers installed. These work remotely and automatically but you need to source a supply of pellets.
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Someone who can't make a decision in 15 years unlikely to be able to make one based on what some people on a forum say no matter how well intentioned so I see little point in going on about anything as I am not retired and don't have the time to waste.

idun:

Tulikivi UK Ltd.

  

+44 1285 650633

14 Elliott Road

Love Lane Industrial Estate

GL7 1YS Cirencester

United Kingdom

[email protected]

www.tulikivi.co.uk

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Thanks for all the input. My comments about Gas came from stories like this http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3358616/Climate-deal-signals-end-gas-cookers-ll-phased-meet-new-targets-experts-claim.html

There is mains gas in my road and when the pipe was put in a arranged to have a yellow conduit put up the drive.... but money ran out so I didn't continue.

I don't have very much garden (have about 100 meters of drive that I never use.... but it goes up to another house and they do use it, so perhaps not... :-) ) Winter sun does provide a lot of infra red light so pipes on the roof might be an option but then the heat has to be stored until the evening when it is needed.

I would love the wood pellets but I am not sure how well that works if the place in empty for a few weeks. If the pellets are not bone dry does it cause problems.

I had wondered if photo voltaic would be an option because (currently) it would be almost entirely "feed in" for 45 weeks of the year.

Confusing myself even more :-)
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[quote user="Théière"]Someone who can't make a decision in 15 years unlikely to be able to make one based on what some people on a forum say no matter how well intentioned so I see little point in going on about anything as I am not retired and don't have the time to waste.

idun:

Tulikivi UK Ltd.

  

+44 1285 650633

14 Elliott Road

Love Lane Industrial Estate

GL7 1YS Cirencester

United Kingdom

[email protected]

www.tulikivi.co.uk

[/quote]

I did miss out something, which, if I had included it, might have influenced your style of reply. Lack of money caused the delay. End of mortgage has created the opportunity. But Climate Change talks last December have confused the issue for me.
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Any geothermal or air-source heat pump requires electricity so it is not an independent energy source. But electricity in France will probably remain price-competitive and reliable.

My photovoltaic solar panels are currently partially covered in snow so although it is sunny they are only generating a few watts. So they are not a source of usable energy. The panel costs and the feed-in tariffs have changed but it still takes about 8-10 years to cover the costs. If you look at http://www.bdpv.fr/carte_installation.php you can check photovoltaic installations in your area and their monthly production.

When I come to change my oil-based heating it will be with (probably vertical bore) geothermal. I don't trust air-source to provide enough heating when it is -14C at night and -5C in the day, as it was a few days ago.

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[quote user="JohnM"]

I did miss out something, which, if I had included it, might have influenced your style of reply. Lack of money caused the delay. End of mortgage has created the opportunity. But Climate Change talks last December have confused the issue for me.[/quote]

Yes you did like salient facts you now mention.  It sounded like you were just a ditherer but now I can understand.  The only worry is you still read the daily mail and worse actually believe what crap they write but that's another story for another day.

Evacuated tube solar works to provide hot water in Antarctica so will still work well if the sky is bright enough.  Not so good in cloudy weather so backup still needed. In summer you need to be able to dump the heat or they can overheat especially if you are not there. Using a roller blind affair seems to work well and could also be used in the case of a hail storm to protect the tubes. I don't know of commercially available blinds specifically for this purpose but it's a good idea. Couple that up to a large heat store if you have the space indoors somewhere for a 3000ltr tank or outdoors buried in the ground.

https://www.bas.ac.uk/about/antarctica/environmental-protection/energy-use-and-carbon-management/energy-and-technology-at-bas/renewable-and-alternative-energy-in-the-antarctic/bas-goes-solar/

Pellets for pellet burners are available in bags so you don't have to order large quantities to be stored in a specific dry room, the pellets stoves do work very well and being instant lighting and set on a timer is wonderful my friends who have just installed one tell me.

Air source heat pumps provided they are rated for the climate work very well. The Swedish use them up near the arctic circle at -20, ok you won't get a big uplift of heat but it will still be more than an electric radiator. Without the big expensive geothermal pipe or borehole you are more likely to see better value over a €26000 geothermal installation.  Clever plumbing would possibly allow you to also heat a swimming pool with the heat pump when not necessarily being used for the home. Better suited to lower temperature use like underfloor heating than for radiators which generally work at higher temperatures so over sized rads are usually needed if you decide on that route.

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Thanks for the link to Tulikivi UK, but six years ago when I wanted to

install one of their fires, they simply had not agents in the UK. Nuuna

Unni, said that they would do it, and then dithered and dithered and

never got back in touch, so we spent a lot on what we bought....... and

when the money is gone it is gone!!!

If I were moving again with a new budget, I would look into Willach KG a german company that does the same thing.

I only mentioned Tulikivi, because Atre et Loisirs in Arbin is not that far from JohnM's french house.

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Thanks for all the input. Last nights spread sheet needs to come out again.... radiator system may reappear.... (I'm guessing that more vegetable oil oil will be grown as time goes on?) Before Christmas I had it quite clearly mapped out..... For info.... I don't read the daily mail..... I used to buy it, mainly for the crossword but some 15 to 20 years ago I actually wrote to the editor to tell him that I didn't like the cheque book journalism they were employing - he did reply trying to justify it but I haven't bought it since. I initially heard the reports about Gas on Radio 4, but when trying to explain why I was concerned, I did a quick google to find a source that I could quote and the Daily Mail was the first one to come up. However..... The Beano.... now that I would like to read.
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I don't think that the people who live n the Yangtze River Delta would agree with that GAM?

Plus, if a damm great dam has to be build then the concrete that goes into it is about a green as it's blue.

I agree completely if a natural lake is used and low head hydro could be the best of all, but only for small installations.

As for wind? About as much use as an ash tray on a motorbike [:-))]

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  • 2 weeks later...
I agree the local regie does provide a green energy and that is probably the best way to go, (although there is part of me that likes the idea of self sufficiency). As it happens there is a water course at the back of the house which used to power a waterwheel for the forge next door and, I'd love to harness that water.... the only trouble is, it is not a natural waterway, it was built for the water wheel. It leaves the main stream about 2km up the hill. The council kept it going while it was also needed as a sewer, but for about 10 years we have been on mains, so they may stop maintaining the "stream".
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Hi John,

Everyone's circumstances and budgets are going to be different.

I am not a heating engineer. I, like many people want to reduce their heating costs.

We live in a house built in 1992 with oil fired underfloor heating. We moved here permanently in 2006. In 2008 I installed a solar hot water system from Navitron. www.navitron.org.uk They also supply water and wind turbines and solar pv. Navitron also have a forum where you could explain your situation and ask for suggestions.

Our system uses evacuated tube panels. We have never had a broken one due to any hailstorms (and there have been some powerful ones) or any other storm or bird strike (I say that as I found a large dead bird of prey on the roof one day!) The tubes produce hot water throughout the year. Obviously they work better on sunny days, but even today, with the overcast sky the temperature outside is 12c. The collector temperature on the roof is 31c and rising. The temperature in the centre of the tank is 23c. When the differential reaches 11c, the water circulates through the coil. Preheated water uses less energy to heat up. In the Summer we have never had to cover the panels. The system operates as it should and if it gets too hot, it uses the expansion tank. There is only a few litres of water in the pipes from the manifold to the tank. The solar hot water system saves us 500 litres of fuel oil per year. It paid for itself in less than four years. Two years ago, I installed a 500 litre tank. It is a more modern tank with corrugated coils and heats the water more efficiently. If I knew when I installed it, what I subsequently found out, I wouldn't have put it on the roof. The roof pitch is about 30-35 degrees. The optimum pitch is that of the degree of Latitude for where you are. Our roof faces directly South.

Five years ago, we had Solar Photovoltaic panels installed. Our 4kwh system on the lower pitch roof, produces less electricity that a friends 3kwh on his higher pitched roof in the UK. However, our return on that is 10% and it will have paid for itself in 8-9 years. Panel life is to a degree an unknown, but there are several places in the world where panels have been installed many years ago and test results are published. They are expected to be producing 80% or their rated power after 25 years. The worlds first solar panel built over 60 years ago is still working.

Geothermal is very expensive and works best with underfloor heating as a friend of ours found to their cost. They had a system installed, but their house is heated by radiators. They have had to go to additional expense to heat their house sufficiently.

If you are considering an air source heat pump, do your research first as it might not be ideal for you. https://www.bsria.co.uk/news/article/air-source-heat-pumps/

Whatever system you choose to use, you have to look at your cost to change. i.e how much more will you have to spend to get the system that you desire against how much it might cost you to improve what you already have by increased insulation or double glazing. I asked our Central heating Engineer a few years ago about putting in a more efficient boiler. He said that as ours was over 95% efficient, we would be wasting our money.

Paul
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Thanks for that. Very informative and useful. Double glazing would certainly help and, again, it is on teh cards now I have money to spend (I had been hoping that the builders of a new LGV - Lyon Turin, might have felt duty bound to pay for it because of noise, but that project is well behind schedule - when I bought it was due to be opening now, it is now due in 2025 ish)
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We have had Navitron evac tubes heating our pool for about 8 or 9 years now and as you say Paul they are very difficult to break. They say they will take golf ball size hail and not suffer.

I was the first to import them into France, just for ourselves,  and after Poolguy, remember him, saw them he asked for details and contacted Navitron and started importing them. They are very good and very efficient.

When they were shipped over the courrier had decided to unpack the custom pallets and ship the tubes seperatly. When they arrived 18 of the 30 were smashed and lots were scratched. Navitron replaced them all and sent 10 extra spares, just in case. The second lot all arrived OK and after checking as to if the scratched ones were still OK they told me that they weren't a problem and I would be OK using them for the extra 20 I decided to fit. Their service was second to none and as Paul said their forum is very good too.

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