Jump to content


  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited


Everything posted by parsnips

  1. Hi, You certainly should not be charged income tax or social charges on UK rental income as this is exempted by article2 ,6 and 24 of the double tax treaty , see here; http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/deploiement/p1/fichedescriptive_5835/fichedescriptive_5835.pdf  Regarding dividends  these are taxable in France , with an allowance for UK tax paid (see the table in 2047); however , only S1 holders -not affiliated to the french social security -, are exempted under the recent ruling from social charges on investment income. Something that some tax offices miss is that under art.24 any credit for UK tax on dividends which is left over after setting against income tax , should be set against the CSG on those dividends.
  2. [quote user="CeeJay"]We have some Swedish friends who are in the process of selling their holiday home to an aquaintance in Sweden, but are not involving a Notaire here in France. Not sure if they are involving a Swedish legal person, but it appears everything is being done in Sweden. I was under the impression that a Notaire had to be involved, if only to collect Capital Gains Tax and to change the Taxe Foncier and D'habitation. Is this situation possible or even legal? [/quote]  Hi,      Maybe the money is being exchanged in Sweden , as in many UK house sales , and a french notaire doing the paperwork.  (If this is the first holiday home sold by the vendor there will be no CGT in France.- CGI 150 U). Total sale done in Swede seems unlikely - unless , as suggested, there are Swedish -based notaires- there are certainly UK registered solicitors operating in France.
  3. [quote user="knee gel"]Thanks John, looking at the avis for last year it has been pre-printed onto this years 2042 in the 6DE box which I think is what you are referring to? However, I now find having read the 2041GG under 'Les taux applicables' that maybe I should have entered the amount in box 8TX ie 3.8% instead of the 8TV box @ 6.6% because we have not actually paid any tax over the years, all the previous years avis show 0 for tax and the bills previously are for PS only. If I translate this document correctly, it says that we MAY benefit from a reduced tax equal to 3.8% if the amount of tax paid in previous years is inferior to 61euros. What's your take on this? Mrs KG[/quote] Hi,  If your "revenu fiscal de reference " for the previous year was below a certain level you are entitled to a reduced rate of social charge .  The relevant revenu limits for 2015 are as shown on this item on local taxes reductions, rates for previous years can be found online.; http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F13038.xhtml#OuSAd
  4. [quote user="Judith"]Thanks Parsnips, You are indeed a star!  Been following this, but waiting. ... and guess what, our demand arrived today too - first time it has come with the last tranche of income tax demand, and hubby said, it's doubled .... And so my questions: 1) To whom is the letter to be sent? 2) How far do we (or can we) go back? 3) Is there a deadline for claims? Apologies if this is already answered during the post ... but all this will take some  time to co-ordinate and find, and time is not available just at present, so if it will wait for a short while, it would be helpful to know this. Didn't help that in the same post came an HMRC letter for hubby saying he hasn't paid enough tax in the UK  ... but that one we can deal with once we've double checked their figures!! Doesn't rain but it pours - c'est la vie!! [/quote] Hi,      Send to the address on the form 2042 you were sent to declare on (also shown on page 3 of the avis). Send copies of the avis for social charges. Quote your N° Fiscale (on 2042)       You can claim back to 2013 (income of 2012) : the deadline for 2012 is 31/12/2015.
  5. [quote user="Hereford"]You're a star Parsnips, thank you.  Will you send the reclamation letter for all three years now or wait a bit? It is not a huge amount of money in our case - all on UK investment income - but the refund would always be welcome! H. [/quote] Hi,      I am sending all together under the first letter , with summaries for the other years.   I am sending a separate claim for 2011 income as I registered a "provisional" claim before the 31/12/2014 deadline; it will be interesting to see how that one does.
  6. [quote user="Hereford"]Hi Parsnips Our Avis primitif is available on the Impots website today.  Despite the fact that we quoted the Court ruling and asked that we not be charged Social contributions they have charged them as in previous years. Any advice? I think we must appeal the decision, do we just write a letter - we have never had any problems or needed to appeal before- so not sure of the "form"? Thanks for any tips. H. [/quote] Hi,      The finance ministry has stated that the law is to be altered in future ( but like everything in France , it will take forever), and in the meantime people concerned should pay as usual , and then claim back by way of a "Reclamation Contensieuse".   I attach a model I prepared based on the claim I will be making forrevenue for  the years 2012,2013, and 2014; Objet;  Réclamation   Contentieuse des Prélèvements Sociaux Indument pris sur mes Revenus de Capitaux Mobiliers  2012, 2013 et 2014. Madame/ Monsieur, Vu la jugement de la Cour de Justice Européen , Case  C-623/13, dans l'affaire « de Ruyter« ,et la décision du  Conseil d’Etat rendue le 17 avril 2015, ,  je vous prie de me rembourser les prélèvements indûment  pris sur les revenus ci-dessus cités. Etant  titulaire de formulaire S1 (E121)(copie ci-jointe ) je ne suis affilié  ni au régime de retraite ni au régime de sante  français.  ( EU Reg. 1408/71), donc  tout imposition des prélèvements sociaux sur mes revenus de tout sortes n’est pas légale , selon la jugement ci-dessus citée. Je vous prie de me restituer les  prélèvements  sociaux sur mes dividendes, produits d’assurance vie  et intérêts ci-dessous  énumérés:  2013 -revenus de 2012 : RCM actions  parts  et interets…(take from social contribution avis)..Z                                                                                                    Prélèvements  indûment  pris……………………………15.5% X Z =  …………………………   ?    (from avis)                                                                           (send copy rélévés for all below)                                                                                         Assurance Vie pris à la source ( voir copies);  Company name ;  contrat …(reference)……….…………………………………….................... ?       «                        contrat    (reference)………………………………..…………………......…....  ? Prélevé  à la source  PELs and other taxable accounts  Bank name (  reference)……………………………………………….............................……    ?                            Total social contributions indue prises sur les  revenus de 2012.……………….________ ..........you should adapt this to fit your categories of income - don't miss the contributions taken at source like Assurance Vie and bank interest.
  7. Hi,     From service -public......     http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml......         The court ruling accepted by the "Conseil d'Etat" ;.................... "Contributions sociales sur les revenus du patrimoine des non-résidents - 03.08.2015 La Cour de justice de l'union européenne a jugé le 26 février 2015 que les....... "personnes affiliées à un régime de sécurité sociale d'un autre État membre de l'UE ne peuvent pas être soumises aux prélèvements sociaux français sur leurs revenus du patrimoine............." Les décisions du Conseil d'État du * 17 avril et 27 juillet 2015 s'inscrivent dans la même ligne. Par communiqué de presse , le gouvernement indique qu'il prendra les dispositions nécessaires. Cette page sera modifiée dès leur publication." ...............makes the point in the decision of  * 17 April 2015, that "people affiliated** to the social security system of another EU member state cannot be subjected to french social contributions on their investment income...."     **ie S1 holders This makes no mention of where they are resident or indeed , where their investments are based. Most of what is writtten on this subject is for an audience of french nationals .   
  8. [quote user="pomme"]I suspect there could be long delays if they decide to do it properly by completely recalculating the tax and social charges for each year. As examples, there is the partial tax credit for the charges allowable in the following year so the tax for that following year could be higher. Could there also be a possible knock-on for anyone who got other benefits, TV licence, etc and even for additional ISF charges for a following year? Perhaps someone has a better idea of all the possible ramifications.[/quote] Hi,      I think it will be as much of a nightmare calculation for them as for us.  The difference is that they get paid for their efforts.  I am  sure that they will delay publishing any new directions as long as possible , and in any case , will only reimburse what is asked for and backed up with documentation.  As with other of their c*ck-ups (eg. UK rents) they will save millions because of people who don't know what's going on, don't realise how much they stand to get back,or cannot handle all the tedious work involved . 
  9. [quote user="mint"][quote user="pomme"]The system is still working slowly. Contributions sociales sur les revenus du patrimoine des non-résidents http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml was updated 03.08.2015 but there is still no indication of when full implementation of the ruling will occur. So for the present, it seems some tax offices are taking their own decisions. Those cases may need to be revisited in the future to make sure they do comply correctly.[/quote] How did I just knew that it wouldn't be simple or across the board?! [/quote] Hi,       Regarding simplicity, I am in the process of preparing my reclamation for the years in question.   I have been surprised to find that I have paid more in "unseen" contributions (on Assurance Vie euro funds and taxable bank interest -PEL -nice 4.5% interest on old account, -all taken at source by the institutions holding the funds) than the contributions shown on the Avis.       If any of you have such investments , or similar , check your records to find evidence of contributions taken , and include them in your claim.          
  10. Hi,  See here;  http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/capital-gains-tax/  there is a section on properties in UK.
  11. [quote user="Chancer"]With all your years of experience Quillan I am very surprised that you continue to make assumptions, you are even making (IMO unfounded) assumptions about the OP's motivations. Mind you when a posting starts with we have some friends/we know some people etc........................................ [/quote] Hi, This has been discussed on another forum ( with less judgementalism) here; http://www.expatforum.com/expats/france-expat-forum-expats-living-france/824666-tax-question-reclaiming-uk-tax-prior-years.html
  12. [quote user="nectarine"]You could reply honestly but also get your point across (1) The money came from many years of back-breaking law-abiding tax-paid toil and not from ten minutes sitting at a computer clicking the screen as, presumably, the recipient of this email is doing. (2) You intend to spend it on things that make you happy, whether they be good investments or fast women, or perhaps a mix of the two. (3) You have moved it to a bank that doesn't ask invasive questions of its customers.[/quote] Hi,      When , quite frequently , I have to answer one of these questions about source of funds , I always put "savings" - because if you think about it, any money that you have the use of has been saved from being spent on current living expenses.
  13. [quote user="Daft Doctor"]The notaire is wrong on two fronts. Firstly, as Nectarine has pointed out, it is foreigners living in the UK who will not benefit from this new law, not expats living in France. Secondly, it isn't true that the UK has not ratified the new law, as I understand it the UK has been excused from adopting the law by the EU because of the complexity of UK inheritance laws. There is no reason, other than not being clear about which wording to adopt, why notaires should refuse to implement the new law from August 17th.[/quote] Hi,  I know of at least one notaire who is writing these wills , and indeed recommending them to some of his clients .  If you live near Aubeterre you can find him online. The recent UK court ruling on disinheriting children could make things more difficult for people using the new rules to disinherit a child.  See here; http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/11768382/Could-your-will-be-overturned-by-a-court.html
  14. [quote user="frank"]A question for NormanH (or anyone) I've taken a look at the link you provided but would like to find some written proof that UK teacher's pensions are exempt from CSG if you know where I can find it. I've searched for Article 19 of the Double Taxation Treaty on the net but not had much luck. I'd like to have something that I can show to the tax office that will prove that tax is not due in this case, either in French or English or both. Thanks if you can help Frank[/quote] HI,  In english; http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/IMG/pdf_france_uk_2008.pdf and in french;  http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/deploiement/p1/fichedescriptive_5835/fichedescriptive_5835.pdf
  15. [quote user="frank"]Thanks NormanH Our healthcare has been covered in the usual way, CPAM then URSSAF and with top-ups. My wife will get her UK state pension before I do shortly so we'll both be covered by the S1 form. Will this make any difference to the CSG payments once we're in receipt of the S1 form?[/quote] Hi,       Until you get your form S1, you are liable to the CSG on your private pension and any investment income , but your wife's teachers pension is exempt under article 19 of the tax treaty.  On the figures you quote I calculate that the CSG taken equates to your private pension being about 8400€ - if it is a lot less , and you have no investment income making it up to that level , then the CSG may have been incorrectly assessed on the exempt teachers pension.
  16. [quote user="suein56"]NormanH wrote: Of course how this would be managed for those of us with UK sourced income seems unclear... Doesn't it seem likely that we shall have to continue to declare, and be taxed, in the same way as we are now ? Any French sourced income could start be be taxed at source but UK sourced income would need to be declared by the individual after receipt, as now. Sue[/quote] Hi;     As the french have no way of accessing UK pension payers then deduction at source is clearly impossible for UK pensioners , so I guess we will continue with the form 2047.
  17. [quote user="nectarine"]We met with a notaire last week and asked to make a French will - but with UK law being applied (in order to disinherit evil stepchildren!) - and he said he couldn't write us one as no guidelines had been issued to notaires. He said that the notaires understood the concept of the new rules from August, but that none of them had been given any specific information as to how to write this into a French testament ... therefore we would have to return later in the year. Has anybody found a notaire who will insert this clause (apparently it has to be specific wording, but our notaire didn't know what wording, exactly).?[/quote] Hi,        Mê.  Desautel  in  Aubeterre told me he has done a number of these wills , and indeed often encourages  people to opt when it is to their advantage.
  18. [quote user="headinclouds"]Desperately seeking help! Can anyone point me to the section in the declaration form (online) where I put in capital gains info for sale of second property in the UK.  I spent 30 minutes on the phone yesterday with a person from our local impot who could not tell me where to declare our capital gains, then promptly rang off in exasperation!Am I right in thinking there are allowances in the French rules that may reduce/exonerate the liability?  The sale of the property completed last July and we owned it for 13 yrs. I know I also need to declare in the UK and comfortable about getting it right there, but it has been a nightmare here so far. Any help will be greatly appreciated.  Many thanks[/quote] Hi,     There is a special form for this ,  2048-IMM; http://www.impots.gouv.fr/portal/deploiement/p1/fichedescriptiveformulaire_6729/fichedescriptiveformulaire_6729.pdf
  19. [quote user="pomme"]I have several personal pension funds, one large and others small. I've never declared any of them on form 3916. I have just declared the monthly pension I have taken from the main pot (I do not pay any UK tax on the payments as I am not in the UK) and I've not touched the other funds. However, with the recent changes in UK giving the ability to withdraw part or all of a pension pot, I'm wondering whether I ought to be declaring them before I start considering winding down the smaller pots in the years to come? And if I did take money from them rather than varying the amount form my main fund, how would I declare any UK tax due to get a French tax rebate? Would it be best to declare them as life insurance since there is a benefit to descendants on my death? And finally should I have been including all the funds in my ISF declaration?[/quote] Hi,      If you are taking drawdowns from the pot and there is a life assurance element you can declare as a french life assurance  - you must find out , or calculate the gain element in each payment as only that is taxable .    (if that is the case, and the company cannot provide the info, I have a formula for calculating it your self.)      If you have purchased an annuity it is declared gross  as "rente viager" on 2042 with variable abattement depending on your age when the first payment was received.     In any case none of this income is taxable in the UK so you will not get a french rebate - you should be ensuring that no tax is taken in the UK.    According to this , you should be declaring for ISF ( see "valeurs" )  http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F563.xhtml
  20. [quote user="mint"]Thanks, Val, must be for us to say we are retraités then. The words preceeding are: Nos guaranties vous seront définitivement acquises à réception de l'ensemble des documents complétés suivants: then the list: permis de conduire, carte grise, etc; Also relevé d'informations datant de moins de deux mois à compter de la date d'effet de votre contract: would that be the renewal notice, amenities bill, or what? I am only changing as our present insurer is in Beaune which is rather a long way from us and, while we have managed to conduct everything by email and telephone so far, I dread the day when we do have a biggish claim and I have to deal with things at a distance. I do believe that old age makes one more accident prone and also that stress makes one a gibbering wreck! [/quote] Hi,     I assume that your new insurer is closer to you:  so why not go to their office and ask them to explain?
  21. [quote user="mint"]Good thinking, Wools.  A new copy of the S1 seems like a very good thing. You may or may not have noticed that I wrote on the Forum re the taxman ringing me and having no clue as to why I thought I could claim back the charges. Parsnips, who does know about these things, has advised that we await official confirmation from the, I think he said, finance ministry. [/quote] Hi,    To keep up to date on this check this link regularly; http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml        as you will see it has been recently updated. As to the S1, if you can't find your copy , it is easier to get a copy from CPAM than from the UK. 
  22. [quote user="parsnips"][quote user="Fittersmate"]Parsnips - Would be grateful if you would suggest where and on which form should we put the note asking for social charges not to be applied to foreign dividends and interest. Also which source would be the best to quote - ie. the one that they might take more notice of although they do seem very good at ignoring anything they don't like/understand.[/quote] Hi,       The govt. has said an announcement will be made following the deliberations of the "Conseil d'Etat";  for now there's no rush as we have till 31/12/2015 to make back year claims.  If nothing is decided by the declaration deadline, I do intend to put a note in the" any other info " section of the declaration asking that in the light of the decision no CSG be applied to my dividends and interest , and once the avis is received I will claim back the CSG taken at source on LA, PEL etc.     Best quote at present is the govt's own notice on service public - which promises an update in due course; http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml [/quote] Hi, There is a new notice on “service public” today: http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F2329.xhtml The notice itself , and careful reading of this link on the notice ; ” décision du Conseil d’État du 17 avril 2015 ” seem to say that the french have accepted that those affiliated to non-french social security systems (like S1 holders) should not be subjected to “social charges” on any of their investment income (whether inside or outside France ). This would include not only UK dividends and bank interest , but also social charges taken at source on Assurance Vie and french taxable bank interest like PEL and taxable livrets. Keep an eye on the service public link for further developements.
  23. [quote user="Fittersmate"]We included a note quoting the official reference to the statement and to THEIR government website advising of this with our tax return-Do the fisc actually have any system of update bulletins? It's not rocket science to email all tax offices with a "Now hear this ....bla bla bla" message is it? What an unbelievably amateur shower the whole organisation really is.[/quote] Hi,      I have no doubt that this will be a shambles , just like the long-running UK Rents fiasco.    There  seems to be no central guidance to local tax offices, which appear to be left to interpret legislation  as they see fit .  Given the competence of many agents , this can result in chaos.      I would say, that as it appears no official ruling has yet come from the finance ministry, and as we have till 31/12/2015 to apply for reimbursement , I advise waiting to see what developes , and , if nothing emerges by about November , starting the reclamation process then.      In the meantime , pay in the usual way.
  24. [quote user="suein56"][quote user="tinabee"]Isn't the 17.7% only applicable to dividends - not bank savings interest?[/quote] Yes - hopefully Parsnips will be along soon to explain why. Sue [/quote] Hi,      Under the Tax Treaty, bank interest is taxable only in France , so no tax should have been taken in the UK , or if it has been the declarant should have got it back , either from the bank , or , if as often happens the bank refuses to pay interest gross, by reclaiming from HMRC.     Under the Treaty , dividends are taxable in both the UK and France, but a credit is given in France for Corporation tax paid in the UK on the profits on which the dividend is based.   The credit is for some reason fixed at 17.7% for UK dividends , and this almost ,but not quite the same as the tax credit shown on the dividend certificate. 
  25. [quote user="Mrs Trellis"]You'd think the Inland Revenue could work it out as they write to us at a French address! So should I put a note to say the OAP has been taxed in UK? (Bit late to change it for 2014).[/quote] Hi,      The french tax people don't care if the state pension has been taxed in the UK; all they know is that according to the treaty they alone have the right to tax it , and they will.    It's up to you to sort out the UK tax office's mistake.
  • Create New...