Aly

[quote user="sweet 17"]Rabbie, I agree about referendums.  You can get whatever answer you want just by tweaking the question. I am sure that if the UK had a referendum on hanging, the majority will be for it[+o(] So, you are right about government being left to our democratically elected representatives.  We elect and pay them to debate contentious issues and sort them out. [/quote] Obviously the French and Irish didn`t tweak well enough when they had referendums. Lets hope the Scots are not to good at tweaking as they will end up with independence

[quote user="Rabbie"]Aly, France is actually a net contributor to the EU budget despite the agricultural subsidy. See this link for confirmation. This just shows how many euro myths are being circulated in this argument.[/quote] I appreciate the myths but the argumensts and formulas are complex. and either side can rationalise its position. The CAP is outdated why not use the funds to support the unemployd getting people into work or small enterprise - why farming, relevent in the past, but now? simply because it suits the French, France gets more than twice as much CAP funds than the UK (22% of total funds compared to the UK's 9%) which in cash terms is a net benefit that France gets over and above what the UK gets from the CAP of €6.37m billion. If the  UK rebate were removed without changes to the CAP then the UK would pay a larger net contribution than France. The UK would make a net contribution of approximately €10bn compared to the current contribution of €3.86bn, versus a current French net contribution of €6.46 billion. The UK has a slightly lower GDP than France, Lets not forget the French rejected in a referendum the EU constitution. The negativity is not ust a UK thing. The UK leaving may well effect me negatively but I think all europeans need to be asked and presented with the facts. The myths work both ways - remember we were all told the EU was not a super state in planning, our sovereignty was not under threat, the Euro was the future.

I think a referendum is a long time coming and is needed by the tories if they are going to have any chance to win the next election. I doubt that the EU will allow the UK to cherry pick as that will open the doors for others to demand like changes ie the Swedes, Poles etc. However a two tier EU already exists with the eurozone and with those countries moving towards a federal state. Like it or not there are some truths in the British publics perceptions. The EU is undemocratic and wasteful. The UK contributes yet France a bigger economy recieves the lions share of the entire budget  because of a decades old policy on agricultural subsidies. Where is French solidarity on abannonding these payments in the name of fairness. Does the UK influence  as a member- I think not they just veto. Decisions are made by France and Germany. The other outcome, which is beginnning to play out and one raised by economists is that France will bring the whole thing crashing down as it is not addressing its deficit or the need for structural reforms  and is  now rapidly moving towards a crisis posistion. The next couple of years will be interesting.

Hollandes latest idea seems to be to broaden the 75 percent tax to households rather then just individual earnings. This will add another 20-25000 additional French to his  tax hike scheme. More people on the move then.. He has also decided to raise capital gain to 60 percent on private equity investments - several companies according to German press are already relocating to the UK from Paris and taking there pots of funds with them. I think the problem is the socialists are ideologically stuck and cannot reconcile with the realities of  global capitalism. There sole priority is to protect the functionaires and  there core votes.

I understand his logic, but when he announced this tax hike at a press conference many in his own party were surprised. I am not sure that Hollande represents the working class. He definetly represents the functionaires, the 7 million state workers, The working class are probably more represented by other groups such as the  far left or the far right.  Not sure abt `win win` he has the lowest approval rating of any French president  ever this soon after an election. The failure to implement this hike will cost the French treasury some 500 million.in a year where they have to find some 30 billion just to keep afloat. The actual loss will be far greater as the wealthy who have left will be spending  and investing in other lands. He will probably have to find somthing else to tax like new shoes or maybe we will all have to pay an annual solidarity tax ?

In the last week Delors, Monti, Hollande, Berluscooni, Merkel and Rompey have all commented on the scenario should the Uk leave the EU. It looks increasingly likely that some kind of referendum will occur. The French and Germans have said that the UK cannot cherry pick the bits it likes so where does that leave things for the UK in a future EU state. Especially with growing Euroscepticism..I am curious as to what our rights would be in any such event. Undoubtably as established residents we would have rights as would EU residents in the UK but would we retain them all?

I cannot see how rewording is going to make it fairer. They are trying to save face by ading a spin. How will he make up the short fall?  That plus returns will be down as many of the wealthy have left.

The French constitutional court has thrown out the 75 percent tax hike for high earners. What will he tax now I wonder?

[quote user="Chancer"]Not necessarily in order and may not apply to others dependant on their situation. Taxes fonçieres + habitation for a large hotel on 3 floors + cellar and outbuildings less than I pay in council tax for a converted shed in the UK, its the minimum and would be applied even to a caravan used for habitation. Motoring expenses, basic insurance including European breakdown cover about half the minimum cost in the UK. The cost of the carte grise similar to road tax in the UK but I paid it once and wont pay again for at least 10 years, CT/MOT similar prices but every 2 years in France. Basically my fixed motoring costs just to keep a car on the road are a lot lower, when I drive the diesel is I think about 20% cheaper here, servicing and repair costs would be much higher but i do all that with parts bought in the UK so the same cost barring unexpected breakdowns, none to date. Electricity I think for me is cheaper given the cost of the abonnement but not a huge amount in it, however what I dont get is the sudden and repeated hiking of the costs like British Gas announced today, water I think slightly cheaper. Healthcare, well its free in the UK so it will cost me more here as I dont have a mutuelle but to date has not amounted to a huge amount despite several hospitalisations and operations, I could be treated in the UK should I decide to and once was but that was not through choice rather than it being an emergency and the danger of travelling back to France in that condition, once I was discharged from hospital I hot footed it back to the after care of the French hospital. My dentist actually costs me less for basic treatments after the remboursement although for something like a crown if pain permitted it would be cheaper in the UK. There are some areas of healthcare that you do have to pay for in the UK, vaccinations and medicaments for foreign travel which are remboursable here, I have full blood tests and bilan hepatique each year, I would have to pay private in the UK and boy those clinics know how to charge! Food, thats a interesting topic, there is no question that the cheapest way to eat in the UK is junk and prepared food, way cheaper than in France but now my diet is fresh fruit, vegetables, fish, meat etc basically no preprocessed foods I believe that overall its cheaper to buy in France and I do shop regularly in the same stores (Lidl and Aldi) in both countries but the offering is not the same. I dont drink or smoke but alcohol bought from the supermarket is far cheaper and I believe that cigarretes are too. My sports and gym classes are a lot less than the closest equivalent (a health club membership) would be in the UK, 3 evenings a week of stretching, musculature and abdo fessiers is €80 per year, membership of a diving club with free entry to the piscine 2 times per week and the diving fosse once per week is €120 and both of those include the compulsory insurance and licenses from the FFESSM or FFEPMM. Now without a doubt loads of things do cost a hell of a lot more here especially once you start paying others to do them for you, I am lucky in that I (can still) do everything myself and having a foot in both camps I can usually choose the cheaper country. To sum up I am lucky with my situation in being able choose whichever is the lower cost option, I have been racking my brains and I cant think of anything that I have no choice but to fork out for here which costs me more than it would in the UK. It does mean though that at times I buy heavy and voluminous materials in one country for use in the other contrary to all common sense, over a hundred sheets of fire rated plasterboard have come from the UK, 3 tonnes in weight but which represents a saving of over €2000 [/quote] Not sure where Chancer lives but my hab and Fonciere is just short of 4k so comparable to the UK. These thigs are worked out according to rent values of given areas so they vary as they do in the UK I think many things are abt prefeences and lifestyle. In London where I lived, fruit and veg is cheaper especially in the markets and of better quality then where I live in France. Steering away from stereotypes but a lot of French people eat junk too. Mcdonalds second biggest market is France. I think the comments abt Healthcare are spot on. You cannot rely on a EHC for long term cover. My advise spend 6 months and a few days in the UK to keep residency etc and the rest in France

[quote user="Alex H"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19908095 A woman in south-west France, who received a telephone bill of nearly 12qn euros, has had the real amount she owed waived - after the company admitted its mistake. Solenne San Jose, from Pessac outside Bordeaux, said she received a huge shock when she opened the bill for 11,721,000,000,000,000 euros (£9.4qn). [/quote] She had to start legal proceedings as the call centre people would not accept it was a mistake.. Its 5800 times the GDP but.... COMPUTER SAYS.....  Vive La France?

You probably would not pay Habitation but you would still pay Fonciere I think. You need to also think abt Health cover in France. Also you need to register your gite with your mairie and get it graded.

On Uk rental income, you declare the profit figure and the tax paid in the UK on the French return. You pay no tax on it in France and no social charges.Its used purely to determine your tax band. Bank interest you pay tax in France but can claim source tax back in the UK. However there is a formula and if you claim then you loose your personal allowance in the rebate claim. So if the figure to be claimed is below your personal allowance its not worth claimimg. You can also opt to pay income  tax on rental income from the UK  in France. You must apply to become a professional landlord. Sykes andersen did an article on this a while back. You would then pay social charges but would be exempt the wealth tax on the propety value.

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="NormanH"]" what of non residents how will they calcualte tax bands or will it continue at a fixed rate" A very good question which also struck me, not only on this issue but also on the proposal to charge CSG etc on rents.  Many non-residents ( I am thinking of second home owners, not people having a Gîte business)  don't declare their taxes in France, since they aren't fiscally resident here and so don't need to. Yet the calculation of CSG, and these new taxes on the income from property are based on tax returns. How will the French authorities know what  income they have?[/quote] Sorry, but I must have missed something here. If you are EU-resident but non-resident in France and own a property in France and have no French income, then you have no income tax liability. If you sell the property and make a capital gain, then at present you pay French capital gains tax at 19% (now plus CSG, CRDS and whatever else they decide to throw at us). In the future I presume that they would apply the capital gains tax at the same rate as the basic income tax rate for non-residents, ie 20% (plus etc etc), if the vendor has no other French income. [/quote] That makes sense to me. Lets hope they do not raise the threshold

[quote user="NormanH"]" what of non residents how will they calcualte tax bands or will it continue at a fixed rate" A very good question which also struck me, not only on this issue but also on the proposal to charge CSG etc on rents.  Many non-residents ( I am thinking of second home owners, not people having a Gîte business)  don't declare their taxes in France, since they aren't fiscally resident here and so don't need to. Yet the calculation of CSG, and these new taxes on the income from property are based on tax returns. How will the French authorities know what  income they have? They cannot know and it would be to complex a formula for all the different nationalities and tax regimes even for French bueracracy. I think it will be a fixed amount [/quote]

[quote user="NormanH"]http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/economie/comment-la-france-attire-les-investissements-etrangers_251408.html[/quote] Interesting article and may be true of Sarkos time but in the last week Revlon have announced closure, Mittal are closing plants and even Peugeot are desperate to relocate On another note I wonder if these new taxes will impact on Gite owners. Will the rates be applied after the abatements and what of non residents how will they calcualte tax bands or will it continue at a fixed rate

Looking at taxes on business and employment rights who in their right mind would invest in France. Taxation may offer a short term solution but what happens the year after does he put taxes up again. Where will  the much anticipated growth come from. Spain spent billions on grand projects, yet its riddled with debt.. The rich are leaving, lets not forget the top 1% contribute some 30% of taxes.in france.

[quote user="nomoss"][quote user="Aly"][quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Aly"]Can anyone explain what he means by the alignment of Capital. Is he proposing to align income from renting and capital gain, investmenst etc with peoples tax bands?[/quote] We haven't seen any real detail yet, but basically, yes, that was what he said. [/quote] Well if he does that he will seriously harm the housing market. that coupled with the predicted high inflation from the ECB buying of bonds will make life very uncomfortable for many. God knows what he is planning to do to enterprise in his efforts to raise another 10billion..Without growth these actions are all meaningless in the LT [/quote]   "he will seriously harm the housing market" I don't believe "The Housing Market" exists in France in the same way as british people seem to view it - as a kind of commodity exchange reserved for those wealthy enough to get into. Although I'm sure there are those who will argue that it is a function of the rich to provide housing for the poor. (Whilst making a healthy profit, of course) There are many who do not delight in house prices increasing year on year, often by double percentage figures, putting the chance of owning one ever further from their reach. Maybe Mr Hollande wants to actively discourage tendencies in this direction. As for growth, the policies of the UK government in rather the opposite direction are not exactly producing spectacular evidence of this. [:D]   Edit: Add a big smiley for Mr Cameron's efforts. Paris, Nice and other cities as well as some of the more desirable regions have seen huge price hikes in the housing market. I agree with your comments abt the UK, I think they have gone to far with austerity and the French not far enough. Time will tell. . [/quote]

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Aly"]Can anyone explain what he means by the alignment of Capital. Is he proposing to align income from renting and capital gain, investmenst etc with peoples tax bands?[/quote] We haven't seen any real detail yet, but basically, yes, that was what he said. [/quote] Well if he does that he will seriously harm the housing market. that coupled with the predicted high inflation from the ECB buying of bonds will make life very uncomfortable for many. God knows what he is planning to do to enterprise in his efforts to raise another 10billion..Without growth these actions are all meaningless in the LT

Can anyone explain what he means by the alignment of Capital. Is he proposing to align income from renting and capital gain, investmenst etc with peoples tax bands?

Sorry I will have a look

No structural reforms just more new taxes. Ten billion in taxes for households and 10 billion for business. How much more can a nation be taxed? :www.france24.com/en/20120909-hollande-interview-new-taxes-budget-cuts-tv-tf1-economy-france-austerity?autoplay=1sses.

Thanks for your posts and clarifying

[quote user="Pickles"][quote user="Aly"]I read that for non residents who rent an unfurnished property they would have to now pay the 15% Social charge, but for furnished lettings the rate would remain as before Hollandes changes ie no social charges. I need a French explanation of this if possibe. [/quote] I do not think that that is correct. The text can be found here. Basically it says that revenues foncier (which would be unfurnished), BIC and BNC (which I think would include LMNP) are all subject to the "social charges". [/quote] The word Foncier - which as you state refers to `unfurnisehed `seems to be where the tax is to be applied. But what of furnished lettings? Most of us with gites or holiday lets offer accomodation as furnished. I find much of the French text so blurred This link seems to provide agood explanation See lower part of blog http://blog.provencesearch.com/

Thankyou Norman that is very useful. What I was searching for was a explanation as to how social charges are applied to thoese who have furnished and unfurnished lettings. I read that for non residents who rent an unfurnished property they would have to now pay the 15% Social charge, but for furnished lettings the rate would remain as before Hollandes changes ie no social charges. I need a French explanation of this if possibe.

Does anyone have a link in French that highlights the difference between furnished and unfurnished lettings and the new social contributions payments to non residents. Thanks