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Poolguy

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Everything posted by Poolguy

  1. I agree with your house managers; To comply with the Norm AFNOR the alarm must be screwed to the margelles with teh screws and plastic plugs supplied. Failure to do so renders that alarm a pice of decoration rather than a conforming security devise.   I suggest that a floating security cover is a better investment as it does both jobs (and more besides) and is more convenient and effective than either of the above options. Failing that a fence. Andrew      
  2. [quote user="rico"]Am having a 70m2 terrace around my pool and have been quoted 2447 euros for the beton delivery, it will be 10cm thick all round. Does this sound about right?[/quote]   Rico My god..where do you live....? That's 7m3 of concrete @ at €349/m3 is very dear I would have expected half of that of a delivery. But I guess it depnds on wher you are and how many companies there are in the area. Andrew  
  3. [quote user="Man of Wales"]Hi,  I am about to buy a house that comes with a pool. I would like to know what the condition of the pool, liner, pump etc etc are before I complete the purchase of the house. Do any forum members know of someone who could carry out an inspection of the pool and produce a "report". Then if there are any problems I can get them sorted prior to house purchase completion. The house is near Chalus in the north Dordogne. Any inputs and advice gratefully received. [/quote]   Hi   Ive sent you a private message about the pool report;   Andrew  
  4. I'll bring some next tour Don't yet know when that will be , so that you can make something nice and show me the pic Andrew here are some of the pics [IMG]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss285/andrewhenderson/24Bigsawtrunk.jpg[/IMG]   [IMG]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss285/andrewhenderson/29Twoslabsbranch.jpg[/IMG]   [IMG]http://i584.photobucket.com/albums/ss285/andrewhenderson/43MainslabQuarter.jpg[/IMG]    
  5. [quote user="baypond"][quote user="chrish"] A public pool is any pool which is used by more than one family not including private houses , Chrish[/quote] Hi, we do not 'let' at present. However, if we let our property, which is a single dwelling, do these rules apply? Sorry, but I can't quite decide what the correct interpretation is. By the way, we have a saltwater pool, but why on earth are these no acceptable? Is it something to do with chlorine production efficiency? Giles [/quote] Giles The DDASS will not accept salt electrolysers as they are not capable of maintaing a base remnant of chlorine in a pool at ALL TIMES which is the guiding principle of public health. The material fact that your salt eletroyser is contantly play a 'catch up'game to get the chlorine level over 1.5ppm  or ORP of 650millivolt even if they are maintained perfectly (which they never are) is the reason that they are unacceptable. Liquid chloinre dosers on the other hand can correct and imbalance in less than 10 minutes and so are the norm for public pools. My personal view that its also evonmental vandalism to salinate and therefore destroy all that fresh water hasn't yet become part of the issue but it will in time.   Andrew Andrew
  6. Mark You have a Pentair (replica) pump with two robust lugs on either side to unscew the lid, it only takes 1/8 turn to unlock and can be done with the sharp bump of the heal of the right hand. So long as you've turned off the Red valves from the pool AND set the multivalve of the filter to CLOSE then you should only get a little wet from the water flowing back from the filter but not the whole pool. As a precaution perhaps you could also close the three red valves back to the pool as well.   Bon chance, salute le chat Andrew  
  7. Nice job Chris No surprises....  seems that your DDASS people are harder on having auto dosing, which is good but I'm surprised that its not including pH Its a good service that you have done. Andrew
  8. A small pool is the same thing as a big pool and the same laws and principles apply. You should test the water and add the sanatiser that is required, very small doses only I would suspect. You will also need to filter it to ensure that it remains clean. If you can't be bothered with all that then empty it after every use and refill for the next use. Logic. Andrew
  9. I've sent you a PM for Scuba+ Andrew
  10. For pH moins Hydrochloric Acid is the cheapest but not to be used if you are running it through a doser or any sort of valves/pumps as it will clog, in which case use Sulphuric Acid (TA+)Bicarobonate Soda FCC is very cheap when purchased in the 25 kg sac, but not so cheap in the 5kg pale from the pool shops.(marked pH+) Very simple to use these and Javel with seperate cyanuric acid if you have accurate means of testing for the balance of the 4 parameters Paying for these chemicals in commercial mixes will cost something like 4-5 times the price. So you will certainly save tidy sum by investing n a good tester. Andrew      
  11. Yes its fairly standard pump filter set, usually quite feeble giving 6 hour water change or more. If you want to improve your water quality then there are a few things that you can do. As you have just bought a new pump then I suppose the suggestion to get a bigger system will not be agreeable. However if you change or stick with the system you have then its sure that you need the best filtration you can get and so change the sand for Zeolite and its be a big help to get your water clearer. Just a note that unless you have 3 hour water change  you will alway be consuming chlorine at a high rate to keep the water sterilised. If you want information sheets discussing this then send me your details by PM   Andrew
  12. Hi Baypond If you check the calculator on their website it surmises that your system is good for 4 swims per day at 20°c as its produces 4grams/hour of chlorine (surprisingly low - I would have thought that it made more than that). Never the less, the situations you have described indicate twice the bather load and 8°C higher temps. The one thing you didn't mention was the cyanuric acid (CYN) level, that in it would have a significant effect on the time that the chlorine stayed in the water. As you can see its important with this and any of these machines to keep an eye on the performance compared to the requirements of the pool, and if there is a shortfall which is quite often the case you have to manually top up the chlorine level. Be sure to raise your pH a little as a flat 7pH is a little to bland for good performance, 7.2 - 7.6 is a good range so a couple of points higher than that is good. If you do not what to add chlorine then yes continue to run the pump until the electrolyser has had time to catch up, but be assure that (in my opinion) your pool is not safe for swimming in the mean time, until the chlor level reaches over 1ppm to a required 1.5ppm. When you are not there and not swimming the dropping the remnant chlor level to 1ppm would be acceptable, the only way to discover that would be to try various levels and to test, however this is an in exact science as you don't say if your pool is covered at all. Start-up again I would suggest a 24hour choc does above 5ppm would be appropriate, but check your CYN levels as they might be out of range. Andrew
  13. OK thats fine you have Choc levels of chlorine, so don't swim untill it gets down to below 3ppm If your water is not 'sparkling' may be there is something else you can do What sort of filtration do you have ? Andrew
  14. What are the chlorine levels then? Yes they will come down given time, depending on your level of Stabiliser Andrew
  15. Black walnut http://my.fotopic.net/collection/00148726/ Take your pick (Remember I gooda  carry it!)   Andrew
  16. Thanks for your input Polly and Goo_Rat Just to clarify the last point made by Goo_Rat, the requirement for 'wheelchair accessible pedilouve' is for new planning applications only (as I understand it) and it has been requested only 3 times whereas many others were not asked to include it -the Offices that did ask were in the North. And secondly, an official from the DDASS informed me that even though they do not have the responsibility to inspect for conforming security, they were asked by the Gendarmes (who do have the responsibility) to provide information on Pool sites that did not conform, as the Gendarmes did not have the manpower to undertake inspections.  Again I suspect that this matter applies differently in different regions and is not a national policy (so far as I know- perhaps Chris can verify that during his meeting). And to reiterate the position with regard to who is and who is not under DDASS control for water quality. Its clear, that if a proprietor charges for facilities NO MATTER HOW SMALL THE ACTIVITY (1 gite with a pool, or a spa even), then the pool is a 'public pool' and must comply with the norms. Any proprietor who ignores the norms and operates a public facility below the standard required by the norm is taking a grave risk, both for the continuation of their business and personally I suspect, as the matter could be regarded as personal negligence. All this should be academic however, as conforming with these norms is not really that onerous, it just means that the proprietor must pay attention to the specification of the equipment on the pool and to the maintenance thereafter. In my estimation, the extra cost of building a pool, which is compliant, is not more than 10% extra. Which is not much considering the earning power of the facility. Andrew    
  17. Mick   This has been discussed quite a bit over on the swimming pool board. To answer your question, you can certainly benefit from and automatic pH and chlorine dosing equipment but its not an obligation. Testing on the other hand of the 4 parameters is an obligation - that is daily testing. Also things like accessable showers, pedilouvre (footbath) and accessable toilets, AFNOR compliant security, are often a requirement when applying for the planning for a commercial swimming pool. You will become under the gaze of the DDASS and its they who decide what you will and will not be doing with your pool, so I suspect its to them that you should direct your question. Certainly, we do a great deal of these types of projects and can ensure that you are equipt to deal with any of the DDASS requirements, so If you need our help then PM me. Regards   Andrew  
  18. [quote user="chem geek"]Andrew, The indophenol method is described [url=http://www.hach.com/fmmimghach?/CODE%3AMETHOD10200_40006110%7C1]here[/url] where the test for ammonia actually creates monochloramine so one must first measure the monochloramine amount before going further with the test to measure ammonia.  Otherwise, you just end up measuring the sum of monochloramine and ammonia -- not ammonia alone.  This is also described [url=http://www.chemetrics.com/analytes/ammonia.html]here[/url] (the second test -- salicylate method -- salicylate is a phenol; these tests are also described [url=http://www.hach.com/fmmimghach?/CODE%3AEX_NITROGENAMM1436%7C1]here[/url]).  In other words, you have to subtract the monochloramine amount from the ammonia amount (in similar units) or re-zero the measuring device in two steps as described in the Hach instructions.  The Palintest description [url=http://www.palintest.com/products-details.aspx?id=14]here[/url] (and in the ammonia section [url=http://www.completeleisure.ie/elements/download/palintest_comparitor.pdf]here[/url]) implies that these tests are designed for non-chlorinated waters.  If your specific test instructions didn't say to first measure monochloramine and account for that in the test, then monochloramine interefered with your result -- in fact, you likely just measured monochloramine (and technically, according to [url=http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6TF4-4S7SV5B-2&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=a61791f39ab386ce23efd26e945c9262]this link[/url] it's literally monochloramine, inorganic chloramine, and not any organic chloramines such as chlorourea).  The Hach instructions give a nice summary of the test method as follows where it is clear that the test is really for monochloramine and that one creates monochloramine from ammonia using chlorine (that clearly reacts quickly since you only have to wait for 2 minutes at 25C or 77F): Summary of Method Monochloramine (NH2Cl) and “free ammonia” (NH3 and NH4+) can exist in the same water sample. Added hypochlorite combines with free ammonia to form more monochloramine. In the presence of a cyanoferrate catalyst, monochloramine in the sample reacts with a substituted phenol to form an intermediate monoimine compound. The intermediate couples with excess substituted phenol to form a green-colored indophenol, which is proportional to the amount of monochloramine present in the sample. Free ammonia is determined by comparing the color intensities, with and without added hypochlorite. Figure 1 in [url=http://www.hach.com/fmmimghach?/CODE%3AL61351472%7C1]this PDF file[/url] shows the chemical reactions in the test where the first step is to convert any ammonia to monochloramine.  It should be obvious that if you already have monochloramine, then that is going to be additionally measured in the test.  It should also be obvious that the test itself counts on the fact that the first step, where ammonia and chlorine combine to form monochloramine, occurs quickly. Also, if you have no chlorine in the pool water, then obviously any ammonia will persist as ammonia and will get measured as such.  It looks like one pool may have had that situation.  It looks to me like you ended up measuring the amount of monochloramine and not ammonia in the water, except possibly for the pool that had "no chlor" (what did you mean by this -- no chlorine?). Ammonia is typically measured as mg NH3-N / L which is units of atomic nitrogen.  Monochloramine is typically measured as mg Cl2 / L which is units of chlorine gas equivalent.  There is roughly a factor of 5 difference in these measurements.  That is, 0.2 ammonia results in 1.0 monochloramine.  If your measurements of 5+ ppm ammonia were correct and measured in atomic nitrogen units, then if chlorine were present this would result in 25+ ppm monochloramine which seems unlikely.  Your "Andy" measurement was high at 5.65 yet used zeolite and said "no chlor" which I presume means no chlorine.  If that is the case, then with the zeolite there should not have been such a high ammonia so I strongly suspect that you were in fact measuring monochloramine in your tests and not ammonia.  Are you sure you did the test correctly? Richard [/quote] Richard   I have now the response from Palin Test concerning your challenge to the validity of the results I am getting from Ammonia tests using their equipment. I quote below: "I read the thread that you pointed me at and your detractor is half right with all the interesting text book information about reaction times and species formed but wrong about the scope of the indophenol test we use for ammonia.   The ammonia test using the indophenol method will pick up all the free ammonia and the monochloramine. The monochloramine is a volatile amine and at swimming pool pH is the main variant of chloramine produced. The only variant of ammonia that you will be missing is the dichloramine which can be determined using the DPD test method if you want to go so far but I don't think that is necessary."     Best regards Ian Leahey Chief Chemist Palin Test UK   Now bearing in mind that Dr Palin (founder of Palin Test UK) was the inventor of the DPD method and first proposed 'Break point’ chlorination ' I am satisfied (at least) that the testing that I am doing is correct as it is advertised by Palin test to be an test of Free Ammonia present in Swimming pools and that the conclusion that the use of ZEOLITE as a filtration medium is effective in reducing Ammonia that becomes more and more clear to me. I will test further and build up a larger data bank of samples including pools tested BEFORE with sand and AFTER with Zeolite to reinforce the point. It shows that Free Ammonia is present in EVERY SWIMMING POOL at least to some degree, a conclusion which is Supported by Ian Leahey of Palin test UK   So my dear Mr Geek, notwithstanding your erstwhile opinion concerning what it is I am actually doing and saying, I would have to here suggest that your argument is not with me but with Palin test whom I suggest you direct your enquiries. I shall continue with my claim that ZEOLITE removes ammonia form chlorinated swimming pools and nothing yet has proven that it isn't so contradicting my more practical empirical method that proves (to me) that it is. Here are some more results for you to reflect on.   AMMONIA EXPERIEMENT mai-09                           Domestic pools       Commercial pools       Owner Sand ZELEAU Comments Location Sand ZELEAU comments John 11   0,25 In balance Le Brande17 0,45   in balance Andy  66   5,65 green, no chlor La Brande17   0,24 low TA Muriell  17   0,21 green,CYN too high Font Municip 85 0,04   Low chlor Steve 85   0,33 In balance Bohat Child 56 0,07   fresh water Richard 85 4,56   Clear, indoor Bohat Slide 56 1,29   Green Dubois 17   0,29 Clear, Bohat Covered 56 5,65   Green Rod 17   0,13 Clear Resin         James11 3,6   Green Oxymatic             Note that the Result Andy66 (5.65) the pool was winterised and not circulating, I will ask for another sample now that the pool is functioning and retest. Also note that the results over 1.0mlg/lt were obtained by ‘cutting’ the sample sufficient times with blank water till the photometer was able to register a reading. They are therefore approximate as the method was not an exact halving, but results under 1.0 can be regarded as reliable.   I am willing to add to this list by way of testing any water that can be sent to me under reliable conditions so that a more complete picture can be developed.   So I hope that we have now arrived at a point where my response to your contradiction has been explained. But bear in mind that I am not challenging you to prove your theoretical construction but rather merely to verifying the validity of my experimental conclusions in order to make claims in the market place that I can support with such evidence. There is after all far too much poor or misleading information put forward in an effort to sell unnecessary or inappropriate products in the pool industry, which I think was the tenor of your original objection to my remarks.   Suffice it to say that this discussion, if it has not nothing else will I hope convince you and anyone else that cares to follow it that for my part at least, there is substance and integrity to my position.   Andrew                
  19. [quote user="mickcooke"] Yes, believe it or not, I am not setting up a leisure park with wave machines, slides and thousands of visitors. I am talking about a straight forward 10x5 in my back garden for use by my family, our friends and a few guests we have staying at our two gites. If I am reading correctly, you are saying is that there is only one set of regs and they are aimed primarily at large public pools but are ambiguous enough to suggest that they might apply to gites. Is that so? Is there no regs at all aimed specifically at small time gite owners? Panda - thanks very much for your illuminating contributions. I would very much like to talk to your friends who have gites and get first hand info from them on this subject. Could you post an email address or phone number? If not could you forward my email address on to them and ask them to contact me. [/quote] Mick I am not at all sure that the real situation concerning compliance has been made clear, and perhaps for the 'last word' on the matter you should actually contact your local DDASS inspector. In the mean time, so far as I read the regs what's important is the definition of a 'public pool' for its only these that the DDASS are concerned about. Cutting through the volume of verbage, it comes down to any pool or aquatic facility where the public is charged for its use, or more than one family at a time. The later part of that is confusing and unclear so for the time being I suugest that you ignore it untill its clarified by them. Now loking at the former where a proprieter is charging for the use of the pool then this would seem to included ALL, and ANY Gite installations large, small or otherwise. (the fact that Panda and his mates want to laugh at the regs is beside the point, we all know that its the 'culture' here) Now the reality is what determines what you decide to do, which is that there are over 35,000 Gites in France, not counting Hotels, campings, Chamdre D'hote, Municiplals most of whom have pools. The DDASS simply do not have the staff to get around and test them all each month. So you can see the reason why some owners have never seen an inspector and probably never will, but that in no way excuses them from complaince with the regs. For those that do not comply will get into a significantly difficult position should a matter of public health be investigated after the fact. Shoud they be found at fault then, so far as my experience with that position goes, they are immediately closed for use by the public, then the investigation runs its course and the consquence are dealt out. Meantime the pool proprieter will loose the use of a very valuable asset and suffer the embarrassment of explaining to guests why they cannot use the pool that was advertised. If you want to take advise from other gite owners then go ahead by all means but please recognise that they are not the people making the rules, and most of them certinaly do not abide by them.I beleive its the DDASS that you should be taking to and sooner rather than later bearing in mind the plans you have for an Aqualtic park - which certainly sound significant enough to come under their gaze and therefore certain to be inspected regularly. Andrew
  20. Panda My god are you having a joke, do you not realise what you are saying is admitting the break the law and advising other to do so as well? What I have specified in the post above is not my fanciful moneygrubbing but rather  -the Law, according to the DDASS regulations which I have taken the time to read but you obviously have not. Anyone can read the same if they use the internet. So if you run a Gite and also know others who do so conciously flouting the LAW and public health regulations and norms , well that is your affiar. But please keep that to yourself rather than declaring it on a public forum which shows off your blatent disregard for the Law in France and the health of your clients. These are STANDARDS, and the same throughout France, I fail to see what 'Local Advice' has got to do with it.   Andrew
  21. Best plan is to call me and I can talk you through the list of considerations.   However, breifly your need to comply with DDASS (Dept of Health )regulations. So you must have 3 hour water change, all water is filtered every 3 hours; Sanitsation conforming with norm - auto dosing conforms, so does manual chlor but its difficult to keep up with testing and dosing. Shower near pool Pediluvre (foot bath) wheel chair accessable Toilets with access Test (pH, Chlor libre)at least once per day with reliable tester and record Your water mist be free of chloromines, phosphates, nitrates and certain bacteria,and paracites AFNOR Compliant security Not an extensive list and it depends on the inspector how tough they will be on you, but its an indication. (Just a note that salt chlorine generators are NOT accepted as they do not conform.) I can help you upgrade your pool to be compliant and pass the water test every time if you want, you'll need t contact me. Andrew    
  22. Thanks Chris for proposing what is a most wholesome and helpful campaign. Zeolite not sand..... For John Lets get some perspective here. A pool.... what so ever its made of or by whom, is an investment of between €15k up to say €50k or even more most of which is spend on materials and construction most of which has nothing to do with water quality. You do not swim in those things... you swim in the water, that is what gives the pleasure and what will give you problems or infections if it is not the best it can be. Now if you use Zeolite in the filter its an investment of less than 3% down to 1% of the total cost of the pool, and it lasts for 10 years ..... now really! To get the water that you swim in up to a good standard for 1-3% of the budget is not unreasonable. The problem is not pool owners, as they do not know the facts and by an large, they are looking for guidance, the problem is pool builders and promoters. Because if water quality is presented by a pool company first (who should know the difference) and the budget fixed and 'ringfenced' and only after that things like terraces and fancy fittings are factored in then water quality wins and there is no need to 'afford' it- as its not a luxury, but a necessity. I do not accept your statement that the thousands of pools country wide have been operating acceptably - as chemical analysis I have done (and will continue to do) proves that they are not, due to in part an excess or ammonia present in the water which is not dealt with by sand but is extracted by Zeolite. Now John: Please be careful what you are saying when you quote your British supplier of Zeolite (South African origin)  as we've heard this nonsense before and its not correct - there is no such thing as 'garden Zeolite', it can be used in many different forms and there has never been any evidence that any Zeolite has been linked to cancer - this is plain false (show me any evidence if you have them). They (your supplier) are not the only supplier of Zeolite (approved for use) world wide, as we outsell them many times over and have done so for over a decade. So please confine your comments generically or be prepare to stump up the evidence of independent laboratory studies, as it does not augur well for the future. Andrew
  23. Don't quite see the point of persevering with sand - its worthless so why keep it. If your filter is giving you trouble then it makes sense to change what your doing. You’re clinging on to a pile of sand, which cost practically nothing and gives you the worst filtration rate of any media you could choose. It’s a struggle that doesn't make a lot of sense really. If you ' take the plunge' and change to Zeolite then you can ensure that the problem is solved in the process and enjoy the best filtration you can have all season and for 10 years into the future. The cost of Zeolite is returned many times over in less chemical usage and water wastage from backwashing... the economics are a no brainier, but that’s really not the reason to change. The real reason is the incredible water quality - and anyone who has made the change will testify to that. Sand is a waste of money and unhealthy to boot. Andrew  
  24. My thanks to Big Mac for defending my corner whilst I had a much needed weekend 'decompress'. Ernie is busting for number so that he can make a call to go or to bust. Gluestick has done buckets of numbers but can't find a conclusion (I do like his choice of Gasification, I'm about to do that here) I've done both of those things and one thing more..... Here is my imperical proof that Solar can be used for heating.... Its in my home and its been heating pretty well alone since the beginning of February. www.poolguyenergy.com That will bring up the question of 'The Gap'  (there will be more on that when you've done you homework.. click above and check out a few dates in Feb and March and see how they look to you). Andrew
  25. [quote user="ErnieY"] So what would be the ballpark cost of a solar system capable of comfortably heating a reasonably well insulated 4 bed house then, turnkey job, signed, sealed, and delivered ? Go on, sell it to me, I am genuinely interested. Bear in mind though that I already have an adequate oil sytem which costs me around €1000/pa to feed plus an annual service of about €180 and although I have no plans to die in the next few years I would at least like to live until at least payback [:D] [/quote] Sorry to disappoint Ernie but 'no can do'. Not just that its against forum rules but specific projects have to be priced on their specific characteristics - so a survey needs to be done on your home and your 'wish list' in advance to determine how the system is designed. The individual prices are available on the website if it helps you but the problem is that a 'standard' configuration can vary up to 50% in price from a specific installation and so its of no use to anyone to throw any figures around. If you are 'genuinely interested' then you'll need to send me your details and we start the study. Problem is, that I'm not going to offer you 'a pay back' figure as I don't think that its possible to calculate a number which means anything. Also, I don't think it is the reason to buy solar either, but that's a personal view and I am sure that someone will try to sell it on that basis, but not me. So just to summarise... yes its a no brainier when you see what it can do, and yes I believe (and hope) that the oil boiler makers will all go out of business, but I don't suppose I'll see that in my lifetime. Andrew
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