Poolguy

[quote user="Chezstevens"]In my current job, I am able to get 220v Pool Systems delivered at US mainland prices and postage.  Could somebody, I understand that this may not elicit a response from everyone, recommend a good make and model (that they have personal experience of) for the following: 1.  Salt system - Cannot offer any comment 2.  Direct injection system for Javel - I understand there are some models with weaknesses ref injectors. - Chemigem no questions at all I will then be able to make a decision on cost vs ease between above systems.. 3.  Robot using 110v or 220v supply. - Tiger shark 4.  Tester for water. - Scuba + We are building a 12 x 6m pool using the Bloc system from Zyke.  We will upgrade the pump etc and hopefully opt for zeolite (sp).  Somebody may mention the warranty will not be valid - I can post it back at mainland US postage prices plus spares are easy. Make sure that you put adequate circulation, filtration and santisiation. 2 skimmers is not enough (I would normally spec 4 for this size pool, bottom drain, 5 returns, and a prise balai) At 110m3 volume that you be 35M3/hr filter definatey Zeolite inside at least and pump 3cv at least. That means 75mm Pipe work (definately not 50mm) Thank you Vern [/quote] If you need clarification and design help then contact me by PM Andrew    

[quote user="allanb"]I should perhaps have mentioned that almost all of the top-up water comes from a well; obviously rain falls on the pool, but I don't have any way of collecting it from elsewhere.  Do I need to be concerned about the difference between rain and well water? [/quote] YES , by any measure using ground source water for a pool is the WORST choice as you have experienced, it comes to along with a vast variety of minerals - in your case lots of Calcare (at least). You are better off using mains water as the cost of treating the water from the well to bring it up to the standard you need for your pool will outweigh the cost of mains water.  Moreover, as your pool is concrete and tile, if you don't keep your TA well checked then an Acid pool or a pool with low TA will actually start to dissolve the grouting between the tiles and you've then got a leak. It’s a slippery slope from there to the complete disintegration of the tiling and waterproofing of the pool. From there your only choice will be to refit with a liner, the cost of which will certainly get your attention. I recommend that you need a SCUBA to keep tract of all of these parameters and a good book on pool management. Andrew Morning John, hope you are well this morning.

OK Lot et Garonne = hard water area You have Calcare. Now that you have an acid pool (pH below 7) all of the calcare has come out of solution and is depositing on the bottom.  So drop the pH a fewmore points (temporarity) and use the remedy to vacuum to waste till you can see the bottom and its clean. Then Raise the pH again to 7.2 - never swim in a pool  with a pH under 7 The only way to prevent happenings such as this in the future is to use rain water for your top up and then adjust the Alkalinity levels manually. By 4 paramaters I mean the following: pH, Chlor Free, Total Alkalinity, Cyanuric Acid. Without be able to test for to determine these levels in a pool it is IMPOSSIBLE to manage a healthy pool. If you want to get better water then you'll need to change the sand to zeolite, it will help with the calcare to some extent. I can help you with your problem if you want but you need to PM me. Andrew  

Sounds more like calcare dropping out of solution to me. Where is the pool? Wnat are your chemistry measurements (all 4 please) Andrew  

Thanks John for clarifying. Suffice it to say that Circulation, Filtration, and Sanitization are 3 related but very different things. What we have been talking about is Filtration, which does have an effect on circulation but does not control it (this is done by the design of your pool structure - inlets and outlets etc their position and capability). Bacteria, pathogens and so on as John rightly points out are a matter of Sanitation - test and dose to maintain sterility, but that will not necessarily do anything for clarity, only prevent the water becoming rancid. We are saying that the faster solid organic particles are removed from the water the less decay is happening and consequently less demand for chlorine which is after all rarely consistent in these little pools as most are dosed by hand using very basic and sometimes very inaccurate testing instruments. So 'overdoing' the circulation and filtration is not a waste of effort in my view. Now I'm aware that many reading this might be tempted to say 'this is absurd - it’s just a kids paddling pool, what is all the fuss'. Well ... I hold the view perhaps unnecessarily, that water - any body of water, be it a kiddies paddle pool or an Olympic aquatic stadium, and everything in between, has the same challenges because its the same media behaving in much the same way, its just a matter of scale. I would rather promote the idea of good water management than the more common approach of simply chucking it all out and start again. Fresh water is after all a precious resource, and in some countries dearer than petrol. And good management need not be any more time consuming nor expensive. Andrew

Anna Thanks for posting the basics at least. Can you test for Total Alkalinity (TAC) and Cyanuric Acid (CYS) as I wouldn't mind betting that the first is low and the second is high which is the contrary to the requirements and will certainly prevent the situation you have described from improving. These tests are most important for you as you as charging for the use of your pool and should therefore pay close attention to these two levels. If you need help to get the numbers right then PM or email me and I'll help all I can. Andrew    

[quote user="AnOther"] 75kg for a 15' dia pool though, you must have bought a far bigger filter than required, mine for a 6m x 3m pool, only takes one 25kg bag. [/quote] A filter sand capacity of 75kg should be capable of 8-9m3/hr which will give Vida a water change of just under 3 hours which is right for a small pool because the contaminants make up a more significant concentration in the water chemistry. So her choice of filter is about right and certainly not 'far bigger than required' in my opinion. Your choice to upgraded from the Intex filter is a good one (well done for that) but the 25kg filter for a 6 X 3 will yield a bit more than 4.5hours for a water change which is too long in my opinion given the fact that bather load and contamination can cause serious concerns about water sterility and quality.  To the contray of your statement above, your choice should have been a filter containing at least 45kg (6m3)but 65kg (7m3)would have been better. You should realise that the sand is only ging you 40 micron filtration so that everything smaler than that such as hair, skin cells, dirt and other organic particles are still going round and round, so keep a close eye on santisation. Swimming pool filtration is not a matter fo guess work, its a technical matter requiring some detailed considerations. Andrew

[quote user="Chancer"] If I may answer that one for myself. I will probably only live another 40 to 50 years so may not still be around to appreciate the  free shower, i.e; after amortising the incremental costs. [/quote] GEE WIZZ what a surprisingly short sighted, ill informed and unhelful comment that was. No real point to explain the real situation on the solar option here I suppose. Andrew

[quote user="Richard-R"]Cheers Chancer, Thanks for the reply and yes I did mean a ballon. Re brands, I was thinking which ones have better insulation, quality of build etc. [/quote]   Why not consider a ballon with a solar coil so that you can get your showers for free for the rest of your life?? Just needs the addition of a panel or 2 and a few other bits. Andrew  

[quote user="Cathy"]I am about to order one tomorrow from Zyte (who has several outlets aournd Bordeaux).  I shall let you know how I get on.  So thanks everyone for their tips.  I shall ask to upgrade to a better pump as part of the order. Does anyone have ideas about pool height - 1.25 or 1.4 metres?  1.4 seems really high from the ground but is it better inside? [/quote] To get best results out of your filtration given that you will ask for an upgrade with your new pool, find out the volume of the pool you wish to purchase and divide it by 3 and that should be the capacity of the pump and filter you buy. Don't forget to ask them about Zeolite to put inside (not sand). If they look at you blankly, suck their teeth or shake the head vacantly then ignore it and contact me afterwards. It would be obvious that the information hasn't yet filtered down from head office that they do do Zeolite (from me in fact). Testers.... well my good friend Teapot has said already what you should do. If it all gets too hard then feel free to Pm me. Andrew    

[quote user="Cathy"]Has anyone any recent recommendations for a company that sells above ground swimming pool kits in France - one with wooden surrounds?   After a search on the Forum, I have already looked at Maison et Confort. [/quote]   As you have probably found out by now if you have bought your above ground pool, that the circulation and filtration equipment provided is woefully inadequate for the job - to keep the water clean and safe. So don't be afraid to ask for help to up grade the circulation, filtration sanitation and testing capabilities to a level that you need to keep your family safe from water bourn nasties - because they are truly very nasty. Don't assume, for example that because its sold as a kit that its 'fit for purpose' because as anyone who owns one of these kits for any length of time will verify, its very difficult to cope with the job of maintaining water quality with this kit – it can be much, much easier and better. So if you need advice on what to do then just ask and we can steer you in the right direction. Those who have already done it are certainly glad they did. Andrew  

[quote user="Thebiga"]Where could you purchase something like 3kg of Bi Carb please. Cheers[/quote] You could PM me and I'll give you details. Andrew    

Londoneye Firstly sorry to such a grump,  got a bit much sun yesterday, so I was not my usual chirpy self. I was defiantly not having a go at you, but the contrary, its the Pool companies which offend me and do so frequently that its hard to stay optimistic some times. They take too much money from the uninformed pool customer for advice and products, which are poor at best, if not down right wrong- it drives me mad. The worst thing is that so many people keep going back despite being fleeced time and again. So now to your problem. Curious! The test you've undertaken proves that the deposit can be dissolved by ascorbic acid (lemon juice), which could be (but its not certain)- a metal plating out such as Iron Oxide now that could be any one of the 3 oxides of iron (normally the stain is kind of brown) and I'm afraid that the treatment for each is different and there is no way to tell which till you try. The first and second oxide of Iron can be treated either with ZEOLITE in the filter or a sequestering agent specific to the oxide. The third oxide is much more difficult and we must use a technical visit to undergo the testing and remedial work. If that is the case, then you'll need to also look at the origin of the problem, which will be in your source water. If it tests to have greater than 0.1ppm Fe then you'll be certain that the problem will return from time to time. That is unless you switch to using rainwater in your pool which is sure to will not have any minerals to cause this problem. To lighten the stain temporarily you can drop the pH (say to 6 or below, but only temporarily, and defiantly do not let anyone use the pool during this treatment) but that only brings the Iron Oxide into solution and it will plate out again if your pH goes up or beyond 7.7 You can tackle it on your own or ask for technical intervention, as you like.   Andrew  

John me Ol chum (Théière) We have another poor unfortunate who has been led up the path to poverty by a big pool companies. Despite yours and my best efforts to extol the virtues of understanding the most basic water chemistry, there are those who still will place their faith and their hard earned cash to the greedy hands of those .....;;;! Much as the Lehman Brs and now Goldman Sacks have been grabbing, greasing and lying for years to make as much profit no matter what are the consequences so too we in the pool industry have Waterair, Magiline and Desjoyeau.... what a bunch they all are. We can both see that poor Londoneye has a deposit problem, organic or mineral - even blind Freddie can see that. So to advise him adding even more Minus to and already almost acid pool - (God in heaven give me strength) makes them rather Negligent I should say rather than just congenitally stupid. So Londoneye, I can endorse what John has to say, first do some test to identify the deposit, is it slippery, can you scratch it off, cut a lemon or an orange and rub on it, etc Then we'll tell you how to rid yourself of this problem. But if you are determined to impoverish yourself then there is always Waterair who will be grateful for your visit and certainly have something equally banal to advise you each situation you describe. 33m3 pool eats a bit less than 1 litre of Javel per day just from sunshine, to shock from 0ppm to 10ppm is 10 litres (around about), but the Javel must be within 3 months of manufacture at 9.6% active. All the above depends on a CYS of 50ppm and TAC of 120PPM and pH of 7.2, if these are not so then the above does not apply. It must be the Sun getting to me folks. Andrew    

Londoneye Thanks for giving us the right info (almost) straight up without have to ask for it - it makes a nice change. Total chlor - free chlor = combined chlor (roughly speaking -chloramines) so 0.5ppm therefore is not clever but nothing to get in a flap about, certainly I would have to recommend that you forget about Waterair treatment - its a proprietary treatment which has a lot of other stuff in it and certainly its making a difference to over all chemical levels. Please send the levels of Cyanuric acid (stabiliser) as I would not mind betting that it is too high (must be below 50ppm). Treat you pool with Javel for the time being so that you can get a better idea of the consequences without adding to TDS. (anyone mystified and confused by these terms - see the Glossary at www.pooguy.fr in the knowledge base) In other news your pH is a bit low (prefer it up2 points) and so is your TA (80 is the lowest you should go) so add Bi carb to get it up to 150ppm and that'll fix the both, If yours is a 10 x 5, then that'll be about 3 kgs of Bi Carb. 'Yellow steps', interesting, decorative, is its meant to be there or has some one been using an excess of sunscreen which has stained the water line - a pic would help, otherwise, we are guessing without prayer. Andrew  

Interested to know Jetlag Did you invest in that doser. Its uses Hydrogen peroxide after all which is quite dear as a form of sanitization (much more so than chlorine) and is not very effective so you need to maintain very high levels in the water. Just curious! Andrew    

My view, although not specifically helpful is that this system is NOT automatic. The reason is that waist feeders do not have a 'brain', that is to say that you can set them to introduce as much chlorine as you like by adjusting the flow, but they cannot decide that themselves. That adjustment feature in itself is at least an improvement on Salt systems, which cannot even do that, but rather only introduce a set amount every hour. The consequences of that are that the pool owner can tend to become a bit lazy about testing the levels assuming that its ‘all taken care off’ - which it certainly isn’t. That is because the demand for chlorine is constantly changing with bather load and heat of the day amongst other things. Hence to function at its best, a regular testing regime should allow a periodic adjustment of the water flow and therefore feed into the pool. It’s clear that that nearly never happens when these devises are installed and the result can be over or under chlorination in addition to the overdosing or Cyanuric acid to which our dear Teapot was referring. So in of themselves, these devises are an improvement of manual dosing with gallets and a mile ahead of salt electrolysers for pool management ease and accuracy, but they are certainly not a panacea, nether with automatic control nor analysis with which to make informed decisions on sensitisation levels- that still has to be done by the pool manager with a good photometric tester.  Its not that I'm say that they don't work, as Baz has testified that they certainly do work, its just that they do not replace the need for careful monitoring and adjustment of the 4 main chemical dimensions of a well managed pool- Its just a more convenient way to add chlorine. There are a few systems which can be described as 'Automatic' at least to some degree, but its a clear that they are not even close to same price level. Good swimming everyone. Andrew  

Roger 'Incidentally, I noticed while playing around that simply holding my thumb over the Aquachek lamp gave a Cl reading of 2.0. Green fingers? In another test, I dipped an Aquachek strip as directed, and got a reading of 7.8. I then re-dipped the same strip, and got a reading of 10.0 off it. How reliable are these strips and meters supposed to be? There seems to be far too much variation for effective calibration'. Ed Roger I think that you have answered your own question. I will only recommend a photometer method using pastilles as it has been proven to me too many times that other methods of testing leave too much error in decision making- and this stuff is too important to be guess work, its the health of bathers after all which is not at all the trivial affair that some pool owner's think it is. I would never recommend Aquacheck as a consequence of the above. If oyu TA is high (above 150) and you ph is normal (7.2 - 7.6) then your calcium hardness will be low bring all the calcium out of solution to settle on the pool bottom. So let your pool rest for a time to see if you get settlement. Andrew        

John I think that we should also ensure that Roger's Cyanuric Acid is above 30ppm as the tests were not conclusive on that. In addition, I am not convinced that the TAC is Over 100, and that will cloud the pool water for sure and make nonsense of all the rest besides. So add bi carbonate soda till you get a Clear 100+ reading on Total Alkalinity (TAC).  Its will send the pH through the roof but do nothing about that till the Bi carb has completely dissolved - takes about 2 days to be sure you've got a reliable result. So then you've got the basic balance and your Chlor choc is (as John says) doing the killing business. All the algae is dead an lying on the pool floor after you've turned off your pump for the night. I hope that you have given the Zeolite 3 good Backwashes and 3 good rinses alternatively to both wash out the dust and arrange the particle sizes in the filter. Then it'll be a matter of vacuuming the residue to waist and you should be away. Andrew

Rose Thanks for the question. I think that this question is best answered 'off forum' as its a commercial conversation, so if you can email me I'd be glad to respond. ([email protected]) Suffice it to say though that the invention of the Oodle Pod (patents pending) has cut the price of this conversion to 1/4  and the result will be many times better than a traditional pool with skimmers, retrun and a sand filter.   Andrew        

MERCY....!   Makes you wonder doesn't it.... Why all these pool owners bother with a pool system which means all that work. Especially when its now so simple to change it all to a Zeolite filter system. After that its backwashing once a month to clean the filter.... takes about a minute (once a month). I guess that there a lot of folk who are grateful to have something to do.....  (?) I don't understand it otherwise. Andrew    

Nice narrative Roger.... very entertaining (Much like my experience whenever I visit someone’s filter to change the sand to zeolite.  Something always goes belly up and makes a simple job into a chore.) Some news that is new and that is that there is now an inexpensive sand siphon that will do 2-3 changes and it’s much cheaper than the professional version. So it’s a proposition for private folk who will only do it a few times in their life and I assure you that its much less bother than a wet vac and easier than the Hand method. You can get a 150kg filter empty in about 20mins, into the wheel barrow, only thing is that you need to have some water pressure in the hose - that is about 3 bar or more. Easy way to check is that if the arch or water coming out the hose on full chat will go more than about 1.5m then it should be OK, anything less and this Siphon will not work. Roger, when you get your O ring and start the filter again, remember first is one to Backwash for a good Minute, then rinse for 10 secs and repeat another 2 times. That will prepare the media for service and extract all ultra fines, which are not needed. Then you'll have the clearest water you've ever seen for the next 5 - 10 years. Tell me if it isn't so. Good job Andrew  

John I'll just add a bit there to your eloquent discussion. Total chlorine is the measure of all of the chlorine in the pool. Free chlorine is the measure of the chlorine NOT bound up with the Cyanuric acid (stabiliser). This is the important level and is not measured by the Drop Testers, which only measure Total Chlor. Combine chlorine is the difference which is the chlorine bound up with the stabiliser. If you need more definitions look at my lexicon here http://www.poolguy.fr/glossary.html In all cases (even a little kids pool) I recommend the use of a photometer such as SCUBA + http://www.poolguy.fr/products/testing.html to test the water as it will give you the 4 parameters necessary for water balance. Hope that this adds something to the post.   Andrew         end    

In fact, the worst inundation on record, 48 dead and still rising. Charron and Aguillon sure Mer under water, several hundred people homeless, power gone out to 80k consumers. Many regional roads impassable. Super high tide and strong winds expected again tonight, here we go again. I'd say that this one was pretty bad, much worse in damage than 99; Depending on where you are of course. Andrew    

Polly I apologise for the offence it was not meant to be personal (even though on re- reading it seems that way). I should always remeber to write in the 3rd person. Sorry for that. My remarks are a counterbalance to the plethera of advice sometimes levied here (not you) and elswhere (also not you) which direct novice pool owners along paths which are misguided, expensive and sometimes just plain wrong. I've been called to help many people in this sitution, and witness 3 closures last year (over this matter). Its not cut an dry as you think, there is a lot or curious happenings. Andrew