Rabbie

It is not surprising that some people believed that if we left the EU there would be £350 million per week for the NHS since it was written on the side of the Leave Battle Bus.  This promise was also repeated on social media. It was only after the result was known that they explained that this was not a promise merely a possibility. The press nowadays seems to report political propaganda rather than the facts

Don't worry, I don't mind deleting them. It is just easier for me to find them if they are reported otherwise I can miss them. Eyesight not so good at 72[:)] At least the referendum has generated a reasonable number of posts so perhaps the forum is not as moribund  as its software

Mint, it would be helpful if you reported these posts. That way they are brought to our attention and we can delete them.

Oliver Letwin told a Commons Select Committee that only the Bank of England and the Treasury had considered and planned for the possibility of a Brexit result. This does not give the impression of good management. For once I see to be in agreement with the majority of Tory MPs and think that May is the best candidate for the job. Let's hope the Tory membership agree. We need a sensible and competent person to lead these vital negotiations

It seems that to make a valid application under Article 50 this has to approved by the UK parliament where the majority of MPs are Remainers. As the referendum was only advisory it could be sensible for them to get a proper individual mandate. Also when Brown took over from Blair there were many complaints from the Conservatives that there should be an election. The same arguments would apply here.

Chancer, I think UM is a typo for UK. ECHR is the European Court(Commission) of Human Rights. It is not an EU organisation but was set at Churchill'ssuggestion after the last war.

[quote user="PaulT"]But Rabbie what do you believe when one politician is saying another one is lying :)[/quote]Personally I try to check with an independent source if there is confusion about an issue and make my own judgment about which is correct

Chessie, free movement gives some people the chance to have a better life. Why do you want to deny them that? It may not be the best solution for everyone but it is not compulsory so people should do what is the right thing for them and their families.

Cameron did have a Plan B. Resign and leave it to Boris/Gove to deal with the problem. He wasn't to know that they did not even have a Plan A. My reply has been delayed by a relectance of the website to accept this reply. PaulT, I reagrd the result as legitimate since people were told the Brexit  people were lying but chose to vote Brexit anyway. I have made no secret of the fact I supported staying in and regard the result as very unfortunate. For me that's the downside of Democracy. It doesn't always give you the result you want

I disagree. Cameron did the honourable thing in resigning after a clear vote of no confidence in his Remain policy. As the British people had rejected the deal he had negotiated prior to the referendum would it have been sensible for him to negotiate the exit terms. I don't think so. It does appear that some people vote to leave to fire a warning shot across Cameron's bows but the result should stand unless it is overturned by a clear democratic vote but that seems unlikely to occur. We need to accept the result and move on to make the best possible deal.

Excellent article. Judging by his terror when he won, BoJo clearly wanted to be a narrow loser in the referendum. This would make sense for his campaign to become Tory leader after Cameron stepped down in  2019. After all when he was dithering which side to support he sent two articles to the Torygraph - one  pro exit, one pro remain and only at the last minute told them which one to print. It is clear that neither he or Grove had any plan in pace if they won.

Thank you Andy for those sensible remarks. Can I appeal to everyone to remember that we have had the referendum, we know the result and we will all have to live with the consequences whether they be good or bad. There is no need for personal abuse of anyone regardless of their opinions about the EU. Personally I did find some remarks to be on the verge of being racist but I do not think they were meant in a racist way so I decided to ignore them. So please let the discussion continue in an adult way. I know we are capable of that

Britain and America are having a competition to see who can be the dumbest. At present Britain is leading but America has a trump card

The minimum school leaving age was raised to 16 in 1972.

It seems that the UK cannot make an application to leave the EU under Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon without the consent of Parliament. So if there is an early General Election where Brexit is an issue it is possible that consent could be denied. Lets please keep this discussion to the arguments and not sink to making personal remarks. Nobody wants censorship of opinions so lets play nicely

As a State Pensioner I resent being blamed for the Brexit vote when I have been doing my best to help the Remain campaign. I must admit I made my choice on what I considered to be in my own best interests and what I saw as being the best for the country. I do feel that those who led the Brexit campaign should have had a clearer plan in place rather than just  vague promises about a utopian future. Cynic that I am, I will not be surprised if any savings made as a result of Brexit and mostly spent on tax breaks for the very rich.

It will all depend on what agreements are reached during the negotiations. Britain had a full healthcare agreement with Sweden before Sweden joined the EU so it is not impossible. We will just have to wait and see

[quote user="chessie"]As for Scotland - I didn't realise that they hated the English so much;  it was Scotland that ran out of money and wanted the 'Union' - at least that what's my history books told me.   But the eu don't seem to have been very welcoming to the Scots either.   [/quote] The Scots in general don't hate the English, We actually like the majority of English people. There are idiots in both countries who most people would not like to be associated with. Just look at the people who daubed the Polish centre in Hammersmith with racist slogans. I am sure that the vast majority of "Leave" voters would condemn that sort of loutish behaviour. Last week I was visiting my old village in central Scotland which now has a lot of english incomers who have moved up north for various reasons. They take a full part in village life and a little ironically some of them are leading lights in the local branch of the SNP. As one said to me, "I like it up here. The people are so friendly. It reminds me of England forty years ago". I would agree that some of us do not always share the English view of themselves especially when they start calling everything english "the best in the world" but then we all have our faults both as individuals and as nations. As regards to the Treaty of Union as it is known north of the border - Act of Union in England it seems your history book gave a somewhat simplified summary. In order to get the Scots to sign up to the deal after the collapse of the Darien Scheme the English government spent a lot of money persuading Scottish MPs to vote for the Union. In the words of Burns' poem "Bought and sold for English gold - Such a parcel of rogues in a nation". IMO this was the best result for both countries as I am a believer in "stronger together". I also believe that this applies to larger unions as well  

[quote user="NickP"]Makes me laugh all this finger pointing and blaming old age pensioners, fascists, uneducated etc. etc. the people to blame are the 13 million who didn't vote, and that includes lots of youngsters.[/quote] Good point Mind you some of them may have died after registering to vote.

During the campaign there has been repeated reference to the undemocratic nature of the EU but is there real democracy in the UK outside of referenda. In parliamentary elections it is very unusual for more than a third of seats to change hands. A good proportion of the electorate live in so-called safe seats which rarely change hands except in very exceptional circumstances. People living in this type of seat are effectively disenfranchised compared to those who live in marginal seats where a vote can really make a difference both in the local result and in deciding who the next government will be. IMO this can explain why people thought they were being ignored and why they took the chance to teach the elite a lesson. The campaign on both sides was not of a high standard and in some instances downright misleading. The Exit side do not seem to have considered what to do if they won. Boris's plan of having informal talks before implementing Article 50 seems to be a non-starter now that France, Germany and Italy have made it clear that there will be no talks until the implementation.  Since the Exit side think it is the UK's interest to leave I wonder why they are procrastinating. Indeed it makes me question their real motives

Just to clarify. I removed two posts by Ernie from this thread. The reason was one which just said "duplicate post" and the other immediately adjacent to it was blank. I did this so that this rather long thread would be a little easier to read. It was not censorship.

Caroline, for once I agree with Ebaynut. It is never worth falling out with your  close family over how they voted. At the end of the day they are still your family and your mother's vote did not affect the result at all. We have put moving to France onto the back burner and are looking at other options. Everyone has to make their own judgements on what is best for them and vote accordingly. All that is clear at the moment is that everything is very confused

Regardless of how many people sign the petition it is not going to be granted because that would require retrospective legislation which is rightly deplored. The turnout was high enough for the result to be valid. What might be a better idea would be a referendum  after we know the actual terms of the exit. There has been no clear plan on what the exit people want to do. In my experience the best way to get a good result in negotiations is to have a clear idea of what you want to achieve.

Jako said. "The UK is not even a WTO member, the EU is. The WTO had warned before the referendum that a new UK application will not be copy-paste: FT.com " But Boris said it was inconceivable that the EU would not be falling over itself to offer the UK an advantageous trade deal. After all is Boris not an honourable man?. Indeed are they not all honourable men? Seriously though this is not going to be as simple as some campaigners suggested. Divorces are rarely that amicable And common sense is often a casualty

[quote user="Alan Zoff"]I think you will find that the petitioners are people who voted to Remain[/quote]Not sure this entirely the case. On the BBC news last night there were several people who had voted for Brexit who did so to send a message to the government about immigration but who never thought that Brexit would win. I know of some Brexit people who have signed this petition. There does seem to be a desire of the EU to speed up the exit procedure so the break could come quicker than expected. I suspect that some Brexit voters are going to be disappointed when they see that the extra money promised to the NHS does not materialise